Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[Nedsel]

I am honestly beginning to wonder if anyone here actually bothers to read the various posts that they comment about. Where did I say the CSX 4000-series cars were not replicas of the 60's Cobras? Nowhere. That has been my point all along: they are later replicas of a 1965 Cobra. They are NOT 1965 Cobras, no matter what your MSO or title may say. Hence they are different.

Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference.

And to address some questions that have arisen in the process: I didn't buy my car for its appreciation potential, I bought it to enjoy driving it. But Evan seems to think that I must be upset at its value. Permit me to state that (A) it is not a COB, as you have called it (RHD), but a COX, with LHD. It was one of 7 built, and three of those have been converted to RHD and/or 427 specifications, which means it is one of 4 remaining, and one of three with its original alloy skin. (B) The last RHD COB car that I am aware of being for sale (6124) sold earlier this year in the $865,000 range. What does that make a LHD example worth? I don't know, but am I upset with the numbers? Hardly.

Evan has also suggested that his car will no doubt soon be worth as much as a 60's COB car. I'm not certain I agree. Given that they only made 19 of the COB cars, yet they are still cranking out Cobra replicas, I would suggest the standard supply and demand equation will come into play and limit the appreciation curve of the CSX 4000s. Time will tell.

As for the questions raised by the new Lightweight Jaguar E-types being built, Automobile magazine has this to say: "Like most philosophical questions, the issue of whether this car is 'real' or a replica tends towards abstraction, can spark tireless debate, and may be insoluble. As time capsule perfect as they may be, the cars are being built in 2015, not 1963. England's Goodwood Revival vintage-racing festival apparently sides with the replica camp, barring what it sees as masquerading Lighweights at the manor door."

Hmmm... barring the lightweights from the manor door... Nah. This is an open forum.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I am honestly beginning to wonder if anyone here actually bothers to read the various posts that they comment about. Where did I say the CSX 4000-series cars were not replicas of the 60's Cobras? Nowhere. That has been my point all along: they are later replicas of a 1965 Cobra. They are NOT 1965 Cobras, no matter what your MSO or title may say. Hence they are different.

Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference.

And to address some questions that have arisen in the process: I didn't buy my car for its appreciation potential, I bought it to enjoy driving it. But Evan seems to think that I must be upset at its value. Permit me to state that (A) it is not a COB, as you have called it (RHD), but a COX, with LHD. It was one of 7 built, and three of those have been converted to RHD and/or 427 specifications, which means it is one of 4 remaining, and one of three with its original alloy skin. (B) The last RHD COB car that I am aware of being for sale (6124) sold earlier this year in the $865,000 range. What does that make a LHD example worth? I don't know, but am I upset with the numbers? Hardly.

Evan has also suggested that his car will no doubt soon be worth as much as a 60's COB car. I'm not certain I agree. Given that they only made 19 of the COB cars, yet they are still cranking out Cobra replicas, I would suggest the standard supply and demand equation will come into play and limit the appreciation curve of the CSX 4000s. Time will tell.

As for the questions raised by the new Lightweight Jaguar E-types being built, Automobile magazine has this to say: "Like most philosophical questions, the issue of whether this car is 'real' or a replica tends towards abstraction, can spark tireless debate, and may be insoluble. As time capsule perfect as they may be, the cars are being built in 2015, not 1963. England's Goodwood Revival vintage-racing festival apparently sides with the replica camp, barring what it sees as masquerading Lighweights at the manor door."

Hmmm... barring the lightweights from the manor door... Nah. This is an open forum.

No one is saying they are 1965 Cobra nor making the claim they are the same.

What you have stated, is what I believe Evan and 2Shelbys are claiming. They are Shelby Cobras period. Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference. However this viewpoint seems to not be accpeted by others and is being pulled in every directions just not to agree. So the MSO does demonstrate is a Shelby Cobra.

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

No one is saying they are 1965 Cobra nor making the claim they are the same.

Actually, re read post #875 and you'll see, word for word, how Evan misrepresented his continuation replica to the general public in a "for sale" ad as an "ORIGINAL SHELBY AMERICAN COBRA."

Personally, I think he was duped by the master when he originally bought his replica into thinking his car would forever be labeled as an original. And when he found out his "original" was subsequently reclassified as a "continuation", he couldn't bring himself to admit he had consumed the kool aid.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by jhv48

Actually, re read post #875 and you'll see, word for word, how Evan misrepresented his continuation replica to the general public in a "for sale" ad as an "ORIGINAL SHELBY AMERICAN COBRA."

Personally, I think he was duped by the master when he originally bought his replica into thinking his car would forever be labeled as an original. And when he found out his "original" was subsequently reclassified as a "continuation", he couldn't bring himself to admit he had consumed the kool aid.

I think you just cracked the code on the "add error"

[REAL 1]

Ned: No one is suggesting that the Goodwood Revival admit anything other than original vintage cars. I would not advocate to change that. Ridiculous. History has to be preserved. Those cars have a history that should not be interfered with or diluted. I get it and so do all Continuation owners.

Do I think my car will be worth as much as a COB. Nah, likely not. Don't be so sensitive Ned. Lord knows...look at me and what I deal with and I'm still a fun guy. Will my Shelby increase in value? Yes, its worth more than I have in it from 15 years ago. Good chance it will continue to appreciate or hold its value. If SAI takes a tank again then definitely yes. Likely double overnight. But...not the real reason I own it. I love it and love its connection to history, Cobra lore and its connection to CS and SAI and the original car it represents in a new generation of Shelbys.

Yeah, its different than original in a number of ways as far as time, who made it and other details I guess you could pick at.

But its the same in one major and crucial way. Its a Shelby Cobra.

It comes down to respect. Give it to get it.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

But its the same in one major and crucial way. Its a Shelby Cobra.

It comes down to respect. Give it to get it.

Evan, as I have said repeatedly, I have nothing against the current crop of Shelby Cobras. I simply prefer the historic cars to the newer replicas. That is my right. Now, if you desire to start up the argument over how biased I am, go ahead. Forgive me if I don't respond.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I simply prefer the historic cars to the newer replicas. That is my right.

That's how I feel.

Also, for ERANJ's benefit, since he joined us late, and who seems like a really nice person, I wanted to catch him/her up on the list of analogies we've attempted to use over the last 50+ pages in order to describe and compare the Shelby Cobra replica to 1 of the genuine 998:

a) The Present-day Auto Manufacturer (Challenger, Ferrari, etc.) Analogy
b) The Mona Lisa by da Vinci Analogy
c) The Rolex Watch Analogy
d) The Dolly The Sheep Cloning Analogy
e) The Seafaring Vessel (row boats and dingees) Analogy
f) The Tribute Band Analogy (Van Halen, Journey)
g) The Indian Motorcycle Analogy
h) The 6 LW Jaguars built by Jaguar Analogy

I may have missed a few, but that's a solid list.

And I'm still voting for "d."

Producing anything 30-50 years later is a replicating or cloning process. And if something is replicated or cloned, then it simply can't be genuine or authentic. Which brings me back to Evan's license plate, which is "Real427." While he does have an original 427 side oiler, the car itself is a replica. Call it a true replica, whatever that means. To me, it's still a replica.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

That's how I feel.

Also, for ERANJ's benefit, since he joined us late, and who seems like a really nice person, I wanted to catch him/her up on the list of analogies we've attempted to use over the last 50+ pages in order to describe and compare the Shelby Cobra replica to 1 of the genuine 998:

a) The Present-day Auto Manufacturer (Challenger, Ferrari, etc.) Analogy
b) The Mona Lisa by da Vinci Analogy
c) The Rolex Watch Analogy
d) The Dolly The Sheep Cloning Analogy
e) The Seafaring Vessel (row boats and dingees) Analogy
f) The Tribute Band Analogy (Van Halen, Journey)
g) The Indian Motorcycle Analogy
h) The 6 LW Jaguars built by Jaguar Analogy

I may have missed a few, but that's a solid list.

And I'm still voting for "d."

Producing anything 30-50 years later is a replicating or cloning process. And if something is replicated or cloned, then it simply can't be genuine or authentic. Which brings me back to Evan's license plate, which is "Real427." While he does have an original 427 side oiler, the car itself is a replica. Call it a true replica, whatever that means. To me, it's still a replica.

RK thank you for the comment firstly.

You actually missed one though What about the restoration parts that are manufactured by new suppliers other than GM labeled on the box as Genuine GM parts. The point being it's all about licensing which Shelby holds? I sincerely believe that if we are simply stating that CSX4000s are a Shelby Cobra (forget about all the terms in between) than Evan car is a real Shelby Cobra and the license term is accurate. Whatelse is a CSX4000 car a real....replica?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

RK thank you for the comment firstly.

You actually missed one though What about the restoration parts that are manufactured by new suppliers other than GM labeled on the box as Genuine GM parts. The point being it's all about licensing which Shelby holds? I sincerely believe that if we are simply stating that CSX4000s are a Shelby Cobra (forget about all the terms in between) than Evan car is a real Shelby Cobra and the license term is accurate. Whatelse is a CSX4000 car a real....replica?

Well, you know where my vote goes. To me, the only real, genuine or authentic Shelby Cobras are the 998. Everything after that is a copy. And for the most part, they're not even that authentic, since the most parts are different.

Even the next generation of the CSX3000 series cars, called "Competition Series" (and I call the "Resurrection Series"), which will use nearly all OEM and some reproduction parts, along with Fran Kress' (not OEM Halibrand) magnesium wheels, are copies of the genuine 998. The 6 LW Jaguars are just copies of the 1960's series.

The debate will rage on forever.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Evan, as I have said repeatedly, I have nothing against the current crop of Shelby Cobras. I simply prefer the historic cars to the newer replicas. That is my right. Now, if you desire to start up the argument over how biased I am, go ahead. Forgive me if I don't respond.

Ned no problem. That is certainly your right. Just so that you know, I have nothing against the original historic Cobras. . And of course I understand your use of the word "replica" as defined by Webster's as recounted in the Registry.

If so, I think you and I are good.