Cammer parts.

[rodneym]

That's a good point, Phil.
When I asked another FE builder about SOHCs, he said that he wasnt quite comfortable with the all the offerings. That certainly wouldn't be the answer a SOHC customer would want to hear but jeez, look at the alternative.
Even with 'No waranty written or implied', it's still a tough pill to swallow (as someone else said).

[undy]

I used these people for porosity issues with my Dove tunnel wedge manifold. They do a lot of bulk work for quite a few major auto manufacturers.

Vacuum Impregnation

[Detroit Bill]

Porosity is an issue with Aluminum castings. OEM's treat parts.

Knowing what I know (which is admittedly very little) about a Ford Overhead Cam engines leads me to believe that building one is a risky business. I think it is safe to say it is a poor design. If you showed anyone with a little technical knowledge that chain setup they would question it.

If I did buy one and put it in a 2,100 pound car that I had never driven before I think I would have taken it easy for more than 40 miles and got the lay of the land. The first miles would certainly not been on a track. It is not inconceivable that Damage has some culpability in this, in fact it is likely in my mind. If he did over rev it he has some blame in this. I think it would be very easy to over rev it. It did run on a dyno with no problem.

Keith could have done everything perfectly right (which I suspect he did) and this would have happened.

Damage found the casting to be porous so he gave them a piece of his mind?
Did they cast the head? "Giving them a piece of your mind" does nothing to solve the problem. I also suspect that is not the first time he has done that. Let me use a different set of words. I found the porosity and went bat **** crazy on them. 25 emails? I would hesitate to answer an email because there would probably be another before I was done with the first.
I understand the position Keith is in. He is in a no win situation. After Damage rebuilds it himself and it blows up again what then? He is complaining his vendor is not acting professionally when he is not.

I own a business, stuff happens. Much of it beyond my control do to material problems that are not apparent when we built the product. There are jobs we don't take because of the customer. There are customers we don't accept any work from because of our experiences with them. With my product which would have an equivalent cost of $6,000 I would have sent the customer a check for the full $6,000 at this point and parted company letting them keep the product. Because it is a no win situation. Keith can obviously not do that.

Damage is his own worst enemy, he backed Keith into a corner and will not let him out. I don't care what it cost Keith did not make $60K on the engine. This is the second person Damage has had a MAJOR issue with in this thread. Does anyone see a trend. I have to point out he chose Damage as a screen name... classic.

I feel for Keith, he has built thousands of engines and this is being held up as an example. Damage is not a typical customer, thank god.


Good luck Keith.

For the record I don't know Keith and I am having my engine built by a local builder.

[damage]

Bill,

I would suggest you read my post again.

This blow up happened way back before your thanks giving holidays. I have sent 25 emails since then to try get an answer.

As far as me having my car on a race track. The car wasn't being raced it was a car show simple as that.

Just because the car is on a race track doesn't mean it's being raced. If you are in your garage does it mean you are a car.

Your correct they didn't cast the heads BUT they did the machine work on them on their CNC machine and they went through the water jackets and they welded the heads back up.

Pretty simple in my book.

As to the rest of your insults and innuendo, I'll leave that alone because you have no idea.

I hope that one day you pay for something and the person you pay to do the job doesn't do what they say.

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Porosity is an issue with Aluminum castings. OEM's treat parts.

Knowing what I know (which is admittedly very little) about a Ford Overhead Cam engines leads me to believe that building one is a risky business. I think it is safe to say it is a poor design. If you showed anyone with a little technical knowledge that chain setup they would question it.

If I did buy one and put it in a 2,100 pound car that I had never driven before I think I would have taken it easy for more than 40 miles and got the lay of the land. The first miles would certainly not been on a track. It is not inconceivable that Damage has some culpability in this, in fact it is likely in my mind. If he did over rev it he has some blame in this. I think it would be very easy to over rev it. It did run on a dyno with no problem.

Keith could have done everything perfectly right (which I suspect he did) and this would have happened.

Damage found the casting to be porous so he gave them a piece of his mind?
Did they cast the head? "Giving them a piece of your mind" does nothing to solve the problem. I also suspect that is not the first time he has done that. Let me use a different set of words. I found the porosity and went bat **** crazy on them. 25 emails? I would hesitate to answer an email because there would probably be another before I was done with the first.
I understand the position Keith is in. He is in a no win situation. After Damage rebuilds it himself and it blows up again what then? He is complaining his vendor is not acting professionally when he is not.

I own a business, stuff happens. Much of it beyond my control do to material problems that are not apparent when we built the product. There are jobs we don't take because of the customer. There are customers we don't accept any work from because of our experiences with them. With my product which would have an equivalent cost of $6,000 I would have sent the customer a check for the full $6,000 at this point and parted company letting them keep the product. Because it is a no win situation. Keith can obviously not do that.

Damage is his own worst enemy, he backed Keith into a corner and will not let him out. I don't care what it cost Keith did not make $60K on the engine. This is the second person Damage has had a MAJOR issue with in this thread. Does anyone see a trend. I have to point out he chose Damage as a screen name... classic.

I feel for Keith, he has built thousands of engines and this is being held up as an example. Damage is not a typical customer, thank god.


Good luck Keith.

For the record I don't know Keith and I am having my engine built by a local builder.

[damage]

Ok so here is my first email contact.

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 7:23pm
To: info@keithcraft.com
Subject: Keith Craft Racing - Contact Message


The following information was just submitted via the Keith Craft Racing Internet site Contact form.

Contact Information: First Name:
david

Contact Information: Last Name:
trask

Contact Information: Telephone Number:
61412886077

Contact Information: Email Address:
djtrask71@gmail.com

Contact Message: Message:
Hi there, I have one of your cammer engines that I bought off Keith Craft through David Kirkham. I have only just got the vehicle on the road and at 65 kilometers (about 40 miles) the engine appears to have broken a timing chain and bent valves. I haven't removed the engine from the car to disassemble as yet but want to touch base with you and advise you that I will want to make a warranty claim on the components that are damaged and or failed.

[RodKnock]

A lot of us work in industries that build widgets for customers. As just one example, a home builder builds a new house and the new homeowner generally expects their new house to be delivered without any issues. They expect no defects in their new house. And the home builder will fix anything. And if they don't, then they'll probably get sued.

An engine builder built and sold an engine that expired after 40 miles. And it appears knowingly installed parts that were say less than desirable. And the customer is expected to not say anything ever about the bad product and/or service? Puh-leeze. Just stop.

[Detroit Bill]

No I did not say that. I believe after the engine was built they heard of other people having problems, it was too late. Who would build that kind of engine with questionable parts? Keith certainly would not.

Your example is weak at best. A better example is a builder built a house. They poured a nice concrete driveway. The homeowner drives a full cement truck on the driveway and the driveway cracks. The homeowner goes ballistic on the builder because the driveway cracked. But the driveway was never meant to support that kind of weight.
So the home owner is culpable. The product was taken beyond its specifications.

[RodKnock]

Your example doesn't apply at all. Have you read the threads?

From what I've read here the engine builder knowingly installed bad parts, including but not limited to the bad chain and Coon heads. So the engine builder knowingly sent the engine to the customer with bad parts installed. The engine broke after 40 miles! $60,000 later he needs a new engine and the engine builder is not helping. How about sending the customer a new set of SOHC heads? Did you see that head and the porosity issues?

Where does it say Damage drove his new engine and Kirkham above and beyond the capabilities of the engine?

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Your example doesn't apply at all. Have you read the threads?

From what I've read here the engine builder knowingly installed bad parts, including but not limited to the bad chain and Coon heads. So the engine builder knowingly sent the engine to the customer with bad parts installed. The engine broke after 40 miles! $60,000 later he needs a new engine and the engine builder is not helping. How about sending the customer a new set of SOHC heads? Did you see that head and the porosity issues?

Where does it say Damage drove his new engine and Kirkham above and beyond the capabilities of the engine?

Saying out loud that Keith intentionally sent an engine out knowing it was going to have a problem is ridiculous. He did not know he had bad parts.
No one would do that. Certainly not someone with Keith's reputation. So Keith has made thousands of engines and on this one he went nuts and totally changed eveything he has ever done and his reputation to this point holds no sway with you. He gets no benefit of the doubt, but Damage, everything he says is taken as gospel. You are naive, it is laughable.

I could blow an engine up in one mile if I did something stupid.

Aluminum castings have porosity issues, it is a well known fact to anyone that deals with them. I worked for one of the big three for 15 years in the parts and performance department, my neighbor is an engine platform manager for one of the big three. Aluminum castings are normally treated for porosity. Someone posted a link to a vendor who does that, did you miss that. Why do you think that vendor exists? I don't think you have the expertise to comment on this. When you buy a low run exotic casting you are asking for trouble.

Keith assumed he got good parts from his vendors and now he is paying for it. Damage does not react in a rational way. His build thread had many examples of it.

[patrickt]

Bill, the real problem that exists here is one that you would only know about had you been reading different, unrelated threads over the years. Keith is fed up with the engine building business. He's sick and tired of it all. If he could sell it for the right price he would do it in a heart beat. Now, that certainly doesn't excuse anything, but it helps to explain it. It tends to be human nature that when you get to the point where you're just sick of what you're doing (and really not so much what you're doing, but rather the people that you're dealing with (customers, suppliers, etc.) that it then reflects over on situations such as this and tends to fuel bad decisions. You then dig in your heels on your bad decisions and it gets even worse. This could have all been handled differently from the beginning, but I have to believe that the fact that Keith is just sick of the business is a large part of it all.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Bill, the real problem that exists here is one that you would only know about had you been reading different, unrelated threads over the years. Keith is fed up with the engine building business. He's sick and tired of it all. If he could sell it for the right price he would do it in a heart beat. Now, that certainly doesn't excuse anything, but it helps to explain it. It tends to be human nature that when you get to the point where you're just sick of what you're doing (and really not so much what you're doing, but rather the people that you're dealing with (customers, suppliers, etc.) that it then reflects over on situations such as this and tends to fuel bad decisions. You then dig in your heels on your bad decisions and it gets even worse. This could have all been handled differently from the beginning, but I have to believe that the fact that Keith is just sick of the business is a large part of it all.

I got it from this thread that Keith is fed up with it. The internet is a great thing and a horrible thing. I'll concede, Keith may not have handled it perfectly. But I am sure Damage came at him both guns a blazing.

Still some of the assertions are a bit off base. This thread has become a bit of a lynch mob and I don't think Keith deserves that.

I am not sure how I would handle this if I were him but this thread is essentially blackmail.
There are precedents for this type of thing.

I am a little surprised the moderators have not shut it down.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Bill, the real problem that exists here is one that you would only know about had you been reading different, unrelated threads over the years.

The engine builder may be fed up with the business, but that doesn't necessarily mean the engine builder built a bad engine. Circumstantial evidence at best.

However, if Bill bothered to research the new SOHC engine and parts story over the past 5 years, he would realize that the engine builder should have known and actually did know that defective SOHC parts have been made and sold and should not have been used in Damage's SOHC engine.

Coon's SOHC head story is well documented. As are the SOHC chain drives. There are postings regarding defective parts, among other issues, dating back to 2010. That's 5 years ago, at least, on the various FE forums.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Bill, the real problem that exists here is one that you would only know about had you been reading different, unrelated threads over the years. Keith is fed up with the engine building business. He's sick and tired of it all. If he could sell it for the right price he would do it in a heart beat. Now, that certainly doesn't excuse anything, but it helps to explain it. It tends to be human nature that when you get to the point where you're just sick of what you're doing (and really not so much what you're doing, but rather the people that you're dealing with (customers, suppliers, etc.) that it then reflects over on situations such as this and tends to fuel bad decisions. You then dig in your heels on your bad decisions and it gets even worse. This could have all been handled differently from the beginning, but I have to believe that the fact that Keith is just sick of the business is a large part of it all.

You nailed that one, buddy.

[RodKnock]

$60,000 for 40 miles!

Seriously, Bill, you have no idea what you’re talking about in terms of Cammer parts and engines. What little I know is that if you bothered to research the matter over the years, problems with SOHC chain drives and Bill Coon SOHC heads have been well-chronicled. Any google search on this matter will yield you many threads/posts on these bad SOHC parts, including websites like FE Power and FE Forum. Several years ago, I considered buying and building a Cammer, but felt the industry was not there yet in terms of parts reliability.

The engine builder knowingly sold an engine with defective parts.

Personally, I don’t care how many successful engines have been built by any engine builder. To further my example above about new home builders, do you think when a new home is built, a buyer gives an “S” about the drywall being cracked, missing roof tile, inoperable HVAC, poor stucco finish, cracked pool surface, etc.? Of course, they care. The buyer of the home w/defects doesn’t care if the other 500 homes in the subdivison are perfect.


BTW, the engine builder still sells Bill Coon aluminum heads. Care to buy a pair? Or would you rather have the Robert Pond SOHC heads for an additional $250?

Or how about a brand new SOHC engine with Bill Coon heads from the engine builder? I hear they have a warranty too!

Ford 427 FE SOHC Aluminum Coon Heads

New Robert Pond 427 SOHC Aluminum Heads CNC | eBay

New Ford Aluminum SOHC 427 FE Cammer Engine Complete | eBay

$60,000 for 40 miles!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

$60,000 for 40 miles!

Ehhhh, I've seen worse. Air Force One costs over $228k an hour.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

$60,000 for 40 miles!

Seriously, Bill, you have no idea what you’re talking about in terms of Cammer parts and engines. What little I know is that if you bothered to research the matter over the years, problems with SOHC chain drives and Bill Coon SOHC heads have been well-chronicled. Any google search on this matter will yield you many threads/posts on these bad SOHC parts, including websites like FE Power and FE Forum. Several years ago, I considered buying and building a Cammer, but felt the industry was not there yet in terms of parts reliability.

The engine builder knowingly sold an engine with defective parts.

Personally, I don’t care how many successful engines have been built by any engine builder. To further my example above about new home builders, do you think when a new home is built, a buyer gives an “S” about the drywall being cracked, missing roof tile, inoperable HVAC, poor stucco finish, cracked pool surface, etc.? Of course, they care. The buyer of the home w/defects doesn’t care if the other 500 homes in the subdivison are perfect.


BTW, the engine builder still sells Bill Coon aluminum heads. Care to buy a pair? Or would you rather have the Robert Pond SOHC heads for an additional $250?

Or how about a brand new SOHC engine with Bill Coon heads from the engine builder? I hear they have a warranty too!

Ford 427 FE SOHC Aluminum Coon Heads

New Robert Pond 427 SOHC Aluminum Heads CNC | eBay

New Ford Aluminum SOHC 427 FE Cammer Engine Complete | eBay

$60,000 for 40 miles!

I disagree. He builds engines for a living he would not build one expecting it to fail. I believe Keith mentioned most of his frustration is from internet experts, are you one? How many engines have you machined and built?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I disagree. He builds engines for a living he would not build one expecting it to fail. I believe Keith mentioned most of his frustration is from internet experts, are you one? How many engines have you machined and built?

Now you're really reaching Bill.

I have no idea what his expectations were or weren't. I'm not him. And I'm not going to guess about that nonsensical remark and/or question.

And whether I've built an engine in my life is meaningless and stupid. I'm a consumer, I write checks as most of us do. And I've paid many people to build engines. Thankfully, not one of them knowingly built an engine with defective parts.

40 miles! $60,000. I think Damage expected maybe 50 miles on his new engine.

Keep shaking those pom-poms Bill.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Keep shaking those pom-poms Bill.

I particularly like these comments. Productive, helpful, descriptive.

Perhaps Keith used his knowledge from years of building engines and experience with all the vendors to make a decision. I don't really think he consulted internet forums. This is where I should insert the roll eyes obnoxious face. Is that how you make decisions for work?

So, you a consumer who writes checks knows better than a person who has worked in the industry for years and created a successful company.

It would be interesting to come to your work wait for something to go wrong and use my "check writing expertise" to set you straight. I am sure I could read the internet and get in depth experience, enough to KNOW for sure what you did wrong.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I particularly like these comments. Productive, helpful, descriptive.

Perhaps Keith used his knowledge from years of building engines and experience with all the vendors to make a decision. I don't really think he consulted internet forums. This is where I should insert the roll eyes obnoxious face. Is that how you make decisions for work?

So, you a consumer who writes checks knows better than a person who has worked in the industry for years and created a successful company.

It would be interesting to come to your work wait for something to go wrong and use my "check writing expertise" to set you straight. I am sure I could read the internet and get in depth experience, enough to KNOW for sure what you did wrong.

So, you're saying that Keith knows how to build an engine better than me? I can agree with that. But you're completely missing the discussion.

The engine builder did make a decision. And it appears that his decision was a bad one for Damage, since his engine only lasted 40 miles after he spent $60,000. Great decision-making capability, when there's 5 years of BAD information about Coon heads and chain drives.

As a consumer, I would expect better. The rest of your statements or comments are completely off topic and not relevant.

I'm not an engine builder, the engine builder is the expert. So what? The engine builder installed bad parts and didn't honor the warranty. Engine went bad after 40 miles. Damage will probably spend another $6,000 for Pond heads plus another $10,000 or $20,000 to fix the rest of the crap. By the time he's finished, he may be nearing $100K for a SOHC engine.

I obviously feel awful for Damage, the consumer, who wrote the check. You obviously feel awful for the engine builder, the "expert", who kept the $60,000 and hasn't resolved the problem, a problem that has been unresolved since November 2014 or thereabouts.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I disagree.

You disagree with what?

A) The engine builder is a member of the FE Forum(s) and ClubCobra too?
B) The engine builder monitors and posts on various forums?
C) Problems with SOHC parts are well-documented by FE/SOHC experts such as Jay Brown dating back 5 years?
D) Engine builder built SOHC engine in 2014, which lasted 40 miles with Coon heads and a bad chain drive?
E) Engine builder either ignored KNOWN information on defective parts or knowingly installed said parts and sent a SOHC engine to Australia. And then when engine broke after 40 miles, said engine builder wouldn't honor warranty?

Bill, which one do you disagree with?