Cammer parts.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

$60,000 for 40 miles!

Seriously, Bill, you have no idea what you’re talking about in terms of Cammer parts and engines. What little I know is that if you bothered to research the matter over the years, problems with SOHC chain drives and Bill Coon SOHC heads have been well-chronicled. Any google search on this matter will yield you many threads/posts on these bad SOHC parts, including websites like FE Power and FE Forum. Several years ago, I considered buying and building a Cammer, but felt the industry was not there yet in terms of parts reliability.

The engine builder knowingly sold an engine with defective parts.

Personally, I don’t care how many successful engines have been built by any engine builder. To further my example above about new home builders, do you think when a new home is built, a buyer gives an “S” about the drywall being cracked, missing roof tile, inoperable HVAC, poor stucco finish, cracked pool surface, etc.? Of course, they care. The buyer of the home w/defects doesn’t care if the other 500 homes in the subdivison are perfect.


BTW, the engine builder still sells Bill Coon aluminum heads. Care to buy a pair? Or would you rather have the Robert Pond SOHC heads for an additional $250?

Or how about a brand new SOHC engine with Bill Coon heads from the engine builder? I hear they have a warranty too!

Ford 427 FE SOHC Aluminum Coon Heads

New Robert Pond 427 SOHC Aluminum Heads CNC | eBay

New Ford Aluminum SOHC 427 FE Cammer Engine Complete | eBay

$60,000 for 40 miles!

I disagree. He builds engines for a living he would not build one expecting it to fail. I believe Keith mentioned most of his frustration is from internet experts, are you one? How many engines have you machined and built?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I disagree. He builds engines for a living he would not build one expecting it to fail. I believe Keith mentioned most of his frustration is from internet experts, are you one? How many engines have you machined and built?

Now you're really reaching Bill.

I have no idea what his expectations were or weren't. I'm not him. And I'm not going to guess about that nonsensical remark and/or question.

And whether I've built an engine in my life is meaningless and stupid. I'm a consumer, I write checks as most of us do. And I've paid many people to build engines. Thankfully, not one of them knowingly built an engine with defective parts.

40 miles! $60,000. I think Damage expected maybe 50 miles on his new engine.

Keep shaking those pom-poms Bill.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Keep shaking those pom-poms Bill.

I particularly like these comments. Productive, helpful, descriptive.

Perhaps Keith used his knowledge from years of building engines and experience with all the vendors to make a decision. I don't really think he consulted internet forums. This is where I should insert the roll eyes obnoxious face. Is that how you make decisions for work?

So, you a consumer who writes checks knows better than a person who has worked in the industry for years and created a successful company.

It would be interesting to come to your work wait for something to go wrong and use my "check writing expertise" to set you straight. I am sure I could read the internet and get in depth experience, enough to KNOW for sure what you did wrong.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I particularly like these comments. Productive, helpful, descriptive.

Perhaps Keith used his knowledge from years of building engines and experience with all the vendors to make a decision. I don't really think he consulted internet forums. This is where I should insert the roll eyes obnoxious face. Is that how you make decisions for work?

So, you a consumer who writes checks knows better than a person who has worked in the industry for years and created a successful company.

It would be interesting to come to your work wait for something to go wrong and use my "check writing expertise" to set you straight. I am sure I could read the internet and get in depth experience, enough to KNOW for sure what you did wrong.

So, you're saying that Keith knows how to build an engine better than me? I can agree with that. But you're completely missing the discussion.

The engine builder did make a decision. And it appears that his decision was a bad one for Damage, since his engine only lasted 40 miles after he spent $60,000. Great decision-making capability, when there's 5 years of BAD information about Coon heads and chain drives.

As a consumer, I would expect better. The rest of your statements or comments are completely off topic and not relevant.

I'm not an engine builder, the engine builder is the expert. So what? The engine builder installed bad parts and didn't honor the warranty. Engine went bad after 40 miles. Damage will probably spend another $6,000 for Pond heads plus another $10,000 or $20,000 to fix the rest of the crap. By the time he's finished, he may be nearing $100K for a SOHC engine.

I obviously feel awful for Damage, the consumer, who wrote the check. You obviously feel awful for the engine builder, the "expert", who kept the $60,000 and hasn't resolved the problem, a problem that has been unresolved since November 2014 or thereabouts.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I disagree.

You disagree with what?

A) The engine builder is a member of the FE Forum(s) and ClubCobra too?
B) The engine builder monitors and posts on various forums?
C) Problems with SOHC parts are well-documented by FE/SOHC experts such as Jay Brown dating back 5 years?
D) Engine builder built SOHC engine in 2014, which lasted 40 miles with Coon heads and a bad chain drive?
E) Engine builder either ignored KNOWN information on defective parts or knowingly installed said parts and sent a SOHC engine to Australia. And then when engine broke after 40 miles, said engine builder wouldn't honor warranty?

Bill, which one do you disagree with?

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You disagree with what?

A) The engine builder is a member of the FE Forum(s) and ClubCobra too?
B) The engine builder monitors and posts on various forums?
C) Problems with SOHC parts are well-documented by FE/SOHC experts such as Jay Brown dating back 5 years?
D) Engine builder built SOHC engine in 2014, which lasted 40 miles with Coon heads and a bad chain drive?
E) Engine builder either ignored KNOWN information on defective parts or knowingly installed said parts and sent a SOHC engine to Australia. And then when engine broke after 40 miles, said engine builder wouldn't honor warranty?

Bill, which one do you disagree with?

A.) The internet is a marketing tool for him not a font of knowledge. He is the one with the experience which is where knowledge comes from. I'll repeat this is a person who has built thousands of motors. He has had motors fail, he has had thousands on the dyno he has seen it all. It is a total insult for you suggest you have an opinion on an engine to him, he has literally forgot more then you now know or will ever know.
B.) The internet is a marketing tool. Do you thinking he is trying to figure out how to build a successful engine from your brilliant posts. The internet is a circle. Research something and if you read long enough you will find people that say it is the greatest thing ever and people that say is it an absolute piece of crap.
C.) How was he to know the chain would fail. Are 100% of Coon heads faulty in your check writing experience? What is the failure rate, how many were made, how many have you used, how many have failed on you. None because you have no experience other than reading internet BS with no way to know what is in fact true and proven. By the way I see the dye test on the head. Is that an acceptable level of porosity? I don't know, do you? Are you certified to use the equipment and read the results, no? Does every engine builder check every part, is the average consumer willing to pay for that?
D.) Apparently that is a fact but we don't know why the chain failed.
E.) Who said he would not honor the warranty? Damage is so busy throwing leaves up in the air it is not clear what he wants. One thing is clear you take Damages word as gospel based on what? I have no idea. He strikes me as an erratic person. Keith on the other hand has been around and supported this community for years with a very good track record.

I suggest you keep shaking your pom pom's. I am trying to suggest that the public lynching you feel is warranted is based on flimsy evidence. And if we were going to call experts to the trial you would have a hard time finding someone more expert than the guy you are trying to hang.

I don't know Keith Craft from Adam but the premise here is ludicrous. Did Keith handle this perfectly, likely not perfect.
BUT he really has said very little. You have heard one side of the story which is the definition of a lynching, mob justice.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

A.) The internet is a marketing tool for him not a font of knowledge. He is the one with the experience which is where knowledge comes from. I'll repeat this is a person who has built thousands of motors. He has had motors fail, he has had thousands on the dyno he has seen it all. It is a total insult for you suggest you have an opinion on an engine to him, he has literally forgot more then you now know or will ever know.
B.) The internet is a marketing tool. Do you thinking he is trying to figure out how to build a successful engine from your brilliant posts. The internet is a circle. Research something and if you read long enough you will find people that say it is the greatest thing ever and people that say is it an absolute piece of crap.
C.) How was he to know the chain would fail. Are 100% of Coon heads faulty in your check writing experience? What is the failure rate, how many were made, how many have you used, how many have failed on you. None because you have no experience other than reading internet BS with no way to know what is in fact true and proven. By the way I see the dye test on the head. Is that an acceptable level of porosity? I don't know, do you? Are you certified to use the equipment and read the results, no? Does every engine builder check every part, is the average consumer willing to pay for that?
D.) Apparently that is a fact but we don't know why the chain failed.
E.) Who said he would not honor the warranty? Damage is so busy throwing leaves up in the air it is not clear what he wants. One thing is clear you take Damages word as gospel based on what? I have no idea. He strikes me as an erratic person. Keith on the other hand has been around and supported this community for years with a very good track record.

I suggest you keep shaking your pom pom's. I am trying to suggest that the public lynching you feel is warranted is based on flimsy evidence. And if we were going to call experts to the trial you would have a hard time finding someone more expert than the guy you are trying to hang.

I don't know Keith Craft from Adam but the premise here is ludicrous. Did Keith handle this perfectly, likely not perfect.
BUT he really has said very little. You have heard one side of the story which is the definition of a lynching, mob justice.

The Internet is a "fountain of knowledge" too, do you disagree? It's not just for marketing. If you bothered to read Jay Brown's postings over the years on his own FEPower forum, as well as the FE Forum, anyone, including the engine builder, would have realized there were problems with those parts. Jay Brown is an expert as are many who write on those forums are. BTW, Jay Brown wrote a couple books, which I've actually purchased.

There are postings from the engine builder in the FE Forums at the time there were problems with these SOHC parts.


The chain drives were defective and the failure rate of the Coon heads may not have been 100%, but the defective rate was high. Would you still install parts with a 50% +/- failure rate? I wouldn't.

You haven't read Damage's threads at all. He has made clear what he wants in emails and phone calls to the engine builder. You refuse to read or just ignore it.

40 miles for $60,000. Personally, I don't care if the engine builder built a successful company or even if donates to charities, he built an engine with defective parts, sold it and is not honoring the warranty.

Again, the engine builder was aware that Coon heads had many issues, including porosity problems, and the chain drives had a significant failure rate dating back to 2010. As I said before, the engine builder must have ignored the information.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

The Internet is a "fountain of knowledge" too, do you disagree? It's not just for marketing. If you bothered to read Jay Brown's postings over the years on his own FEPower forum, as well as the FE Forum, anyone, including the engine builder, would have realized there were problems with those parts. Jay Brown is an expert as are many who write on those forums are. BTW, Jay Brown wrote a couple books, which I've actually purchased.

There are postings from the engine builder in the FE Forums at the time there were problems with these SOHC parts.


The chain drives were defective and the failure rate of the Coon heads may not have been 100%, but the defective rate was high. Would you still install parts with a 50% +/- failure rate? I wouldn't.

You haven't read Damage's threads at all. He has made clear what he wants in emails and phone calls to the engine builder. You refuse to read or just ignore it.

40 miles for $60,000. Personally, I don't care if the engine builder built a successful company or even if donates to charities, he built an engine with defective parts, sold it and is not honoring the warranty.

Again, the engine builder was aware that Coon heads had many issues, including porosity problems, and the chain drives had a significant failure rate dating back to 2010. As I said before, the engine builder must have ignored the information.

I read Damages build thread and this thread in its entirety today so it is fresh in my mind.

He did not post the emails so I don't know what he did or didn't ask for or when he actually sent them. You again have taken his word on what he sent, when and made many assumptions.

Who said he is not honoring the warranty. He asked for a list of parts and Damage said he sent them. What was on this list? Do you know? Was it reasonable? Was in complete, was it understandable, from the list was Keith able to tell something that Damage did not say? I don't know and neither do you.

Anyhow I am bored with the back and forth. Obviously neither one of us is going to change the others opinion. Although a few people have taken my side and none has taken yours.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Anyhow I am bored with the back and forth. Obviously neither one of us is going to change the others opinion. Although a few people have taken my side and none has taken yours.

I don't need others to agree with me for validation. That's not how I'm built.

Here's another example. Let's say you walked into a dealership in the last few years and bought a brand new car. For this example we'll say it's a Honda. A very reliable car, which I didn't build and for which I just wrote a check. I know nothing about cars, but some time later, the air bags when inflated threw metal objects at the occupant(s). We'll call the air bag manufacturer Takata.

Putting aside the fact that manufacturers likely knew of the problem prior to the sale to a consumer, do you think someone should fix the car? Or after 39 miles, the warranty is void? And as a consumer, who just wrote a check for the Honda with the defective airbag and doesn't know a thing about building it, do you think I'm owed some sort of restitution even though I'm not a car builder?

Now granted, a Cammer is not a Honda engine, but not only is my engine still running, there are quite a few members here with "race" engines that are still running, including Rodney's dual Paxton supercharged FE. Built by the same engine builder as my engine BTW.

40 miles is a bad joke IMO.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I suggest you keep shaking your pom pom's.

I knew I should have trademarked and/or copyrighted that phrase. I could be getting royalty checks right about now. I guess I'm not as smart as Marshawn Lynch.

BTW, I shake my pom poms all the time. Exercise is a great way to keep those unwanted lbs off the belly and the Cobra.