514 Ford Crate Motor or 408 Stroker

[Fitz]

I sold my car and am going to have Gordon Levy build me another car. I am thinking about going to the 514 Ford Crate motor which is said to put out 625 horse. Gordon also has a 408 Stoked 351 engine putting out around 500/500. I want to put a big block in the new car with all the goodies. Any words of wisdom. Putting it in a new FFR kit he is building ....soon. Should I run away from the 514 and stay with small block or windsor.

[mikiec]

I love the deep sound of the big block.

Mike

[Junket]

Fitz no ?????????? about it I belive I read some place I want to put a big block in the new car with all the goodies.
Although my eyes are not what they use to be.
Ken

[Back in Black]

The new SUPER Cobra Jet motor (C designation) has re-designed heads and is good for as much as 700+ horsepower ! They are listed as to output VERY conservatively by Ford! Better have a really good tranny diff and clutch behind all that !!

[xlr8or]

Go big or go home.

[BANDIT 1]

BIG BLOCK!

[MidOHasp]

Do you REALLY want honest opinions to ponder for hours, days, weeks, or months?

I don't think so...look where you posted this thread!!!

Post it in Small Block Talk and see what people say...

SMALL BLOCK!
Save Weight!!
I love the sound of a screaming small block!!



You'll always hear what you want if you ask the right people

Get the Big Block. Last thing I want is another person out there with a 408 . . .

I'd rather beat a big block than another small block on the road.....

[ByronRACE]

Weight? A modern 385 series with aluminum heads, intake, etc weighs what...150lbs more than a 351W...tops? And, if you use a beefy race block on the 351 to make it handle the kind of power a stock 385 series block can handle; the weight difference now becomes 100ish lbs.

I don't know about you guys, but I gain more than that over the christmas holidays. Seriously, throw a 100lb skinny kid in the passengers seat and go for a ride. You honestly think that makes much of a difference?

I went 385 series big block and would do it all again in a heartbeat. This comes after years of exposure dyno tuning many hundreds of performance Fords. A properly fitted 385 series is awfully hard to beat.

Compare intake and cylinder head flow 410/310 at .650 lift on a set of $2500 heads and a mild port job? How do you do that with a windsor? And exhaust...2.25" primaries are no big deal because of the increased port spread. How do you do that with a windsor?

Strength is also no comparison. The stock 460 crank can handle 800rwhp reliably. The stock 429 truck crank (forged) can handle well over 1000. The stock 2-bolt blocks can handle 700rwhp all day long, and with a 4-bolt conversion well over 1000.

Granted, if all you're building is a 400-500hp street engine, who cares, you can do that with stock 302 mill with some wicked heads and a cam...so why bother with anything more. What I really don't understand is people that put together 400+ cubic inch windsor combos when they can achieve the same thing with a better rod ratio and a much stronger platform if they just put together a little 429" or 460" 385 series. Spend the same budget putting together both a 427" windsor and a 429" 385 series and watch what you get.

429 uses stock crank, stock rods, stock pistons, stock block. Spend money on a super nice set of heads. Long-rod engine, no dwell, pump-gas friendly, can spray or supercharge to 800+rwhp without worry.

427W uses production block requiring machine work for big stroke, special crank, special rods, special pistons. Budget eaten up on bottom end, mediocre heads purchased. Poor rod ratio, long dwell, not pump gas friendly (detonation monster), can't trust mill over about 600rwhp for fear of breakage.

Anyway, that's my .02. I like the Windsors, don't get me wrong...I just think the 385 series is a better platform for 600+rwhp and as cheap (if not cheaper) to build.

Byron

[Mr.Fixit]

500 hp Sb's beat 600 hp BB's, everywhere except long straightaways.

since when is 150 pounds taken off the front axle insignificant?

[DC COBRA]

I like 427 all aluminum smallblock windsors that make 612 horsepower and 615 on torque since that is what I have. Extremely lightweight, runs on pump gas, no maintenace, no problems thus far. You guys wanting 600 plus rear wheel horsepower my hat off to you. I have seen 680 horse bigblocks only make 510 to rear wheels, it is called driveline friction percentage. Most combos will lose 20 percent or even more to rear wheels, depends on rearend setup, exhaust and tune. I am hoping only to get maybe 475-490, will be real lucky. The guys who have 600 or more to the rear tires, usually have to have about 750 or more at the crank, wild motor to say at least. So far with my measley 450 rear wheel horsepower, one scary as ride.


DON

[ByronRACE]

I like Windsors too; but I bet I could build nearly two comparable power-making big blocks for the cost of a single aluminum 427 windsor. And, I'd be willing to bet the longevity of a stock stroke 429 versus the long-stroke 427W could become a factor over time as well. I have a lot of 408 and 427W customers that have lost the pistons in under 50K miles. That stroke is hard on parts.

My engine isn't over the front axle. Which cobra kit car puts the engine over the front axle? That would be less than optimal. In a west coast cobra, the front of the engine is a full foot (or more) behind the front axle centerline.

And 100-150lbs is no big deal; especially for straight line, silver state, pony express, and the like... (which is primarily what I care about); and the plant I've built will make anywhere from 800-1100 at the tires (using a production block and crank); so I'm not too worried about 100-150lbs. In fact, I pulled at least 100-150lbs out of the transmission when I converted to the 6-spd from the C6 that this car was designed with...so it's a wash.

I'm expecting about 13-15% drivetrain loss. Viper transmission; G-Force gearset; manual 6spd.

I have dyno tuned and driven 500+hp cars on a weekly basis for over 7 years now and they have become normal. I wanted to build something way over the top...this ought to do it. I now have the ability to produce anywhere from about 430rwhp to 1100 just by messing with pulleys and blow-off valves. I'm certain it won't stay above 700rw for long before I decide I've had enough.

Byron

[MidOHasp]

Hey I said go with the big block anyways.

To each his own. I never mentioned an aluminum 427 anyways.

I've heard my 408 next to many 429/460s. Few of the BB's sound as good. FE motor? Different story, class by itself. But W motor vs. 385 series motor, we're talking about racing a Granada motor versus a School bus motor. Big phuckin' deal. They are both "me too" motors which is why I custom fabricated lots of parts for mine and made sure it had enough cam, etc... to sound better than all the crate big (and small) blocks.

I just remember growing up and all the Ford B700 school busses had the same designation on the grille... "429-4V" ugh.

150 pounds while not centered over the front axle is certainly nothing to sniff at on a road course such as Mid-Ohio, Road America, etc... compare apples to apples, though, who cares how much weight you saved in your transmission choice?? I could take the doors off my car and take the passenger seat out, too. I'm sure I could do a lot to shave weight.

PS... If I wrote a post saying "Whites are just so much better than blacks, especially protestant whites. They are smarter, they get ahead quicker in life, they are more reasonable, they are nicer looking, etc... Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with blacks..." Then I am labeled a racist and that sounds pretty bad coming out of my mouth.

Obviously you have to work harder to make 600HP out of an engine that started with 351ci than you do on a 460ci engine. But in terms of SOUL, I think the 385 series motors have none. The W motors have a bit more because of their 289 heritage, a C motor, quite a bit more still b/c of its race roots, and the FE motors are king.

But what the hell do I know, I have a W motor.

I also personally think injected motors with hairdryers do not belong in Cobras.

Just breaking some balls... don't anyone get their panties too tied up in knots.

[ByronRACE]

I have no comment regarding arguments based on "sound" and "soul" and "color". I'm not into the Zen of Cobra-ology, you win on all counts.

Power per dollar; 385 series is hard to beat; school bus motor or not; 150lbs or not. My post has nothing to do with anything else.

I don't care about what motor is technically or socially correct for a "cobra". I'm not building a replica, show car, and honestly don't care about trying to hold on to the heritage. I'm bulding a purpose built hot rod that resembles a cobra because I like the way the body looks; nothing more. And, I also don't care about road-racing. I've done my share of it...and at my level of involvement, you could put 200lbs on my front bumper and it would make zero difference. I don't drive on the road course enough to feel comfortable pushing ANY car to it's limits in the turns whether it's on the street or a road course. I don't race professionally, don't pretend to, and never will. So, no point trying to pretend that 150lbs is going to make a difference in my case. For you guys that make a living racing; or really care about shaving that last .10 seconds off the track, sure I can see the point. I don't think most cobra guys are pushing the cars to these extremes. The few that are, ok, I can see it.

For me, it's all about building something unique and extremely powerful that I have fun with without breaking the bank. I'm satisfied. If money was no object, I'd have an identical engine with a billet crank and an aluminum block. I wouldn't change anything else.

[ENTDOC]

I would go with the 408.I would agree that unless you are going with a 427so,I would not sacrifice the weight or the ability to work on the motor in the tight engine bay by going with the 385 series.I think the FFR cars particularly work well with small block power.No great bragging rights with a 429 like a 427 has,so I would stick with the windsor. chuck

[bibt1272]

Go with the Big Block.

[Fitz]

Thanks guys! This is what I am going with: FFR Mark 3 with a 460. big Bell Housing; Tremec 600 Trans; 355 rear end; Wilwood 6 piston brakes; Superior rear axles; 11" clutch; LR bump steer kit; Lower control Arms; Koni shocks; ron Davis Radiator; Holley 750 Carb; Brarry Grant fuel; MSD; AC; Flamming River rack; and Chasis mods along with all the cosmetic surgery stuff. Shooting for labor day. Haven't decided on to do Hard top or convertible; Waiting to see a cobra being done by the "top Shop" here in Phoenix; Maybe Red in Color this time. Or..........Go Bush! ....and happy next year's ground hog day!

[Spoony]

BIG BLOCK, BIG BLOCK, BIG BLOCK.....

I've done them both....To me it is not even close, but to each his own. I'm a straight line guy, I don't remember anyone asking me if I want to race around a corner!! Torque is King!! Nothing like the sound of a BB comin to life!!

Did I mention, go with the BIG BLOCK!!! Or paint it pink and race it on a bike trail....Only kidding, sort of....

[MidOHasp]

Right, go with a big block! a 427 (or even a 390 or 428).

not a school bus motor.

As much nitrous as you put to it and as many blowers as you put on it, it's still a school bus motor.

Don't retaliate too hard, boys, I have a station wagon motor in my car. It's ok.

The only difference is that the station wagon motor has some racing heritage.

And by the way... a Big Block and Small Block making equal horsepower (naturally aspirated), SB is always going to sound meaner. I've heard plenty of "crate 460s" that don't sound all that exciting.

Again...I am only breaking balls, here. And only for one reason. Obviously, Mr. Fitz didn't want to hear both sides of the issue, he just wanted someone to confirm his already made choice of a 460. Which is O-KAY!!! It's his car!! He can do whatever the heck he wants!!

But if I'm at the Democratic Convention and I start asking people who I should vote for, I am probably not going to hear too many people say "Bush"...

Oh and ByronRACE's post pissed me off because after a dozen posts, he writes a novel about how far superior big blocks are than small blocks - but doesn't stop there and continues on about how far superior the 385 series is.

He was right about one thing - you can build cheaper power with this motor. If ALL I was looking for was cheap power, best believe I'd have grabbed my welder, custom fabricated some mounts, and built up a Chevy 454 based powerplant. Now THAT is easy power - and for cheap.

boooooorrring.

I am just saying that I waited until I had well over 100 posts to start throwing my opinion around like 100 years of tried and true research. Granted, it was thrown around in the 429/460 forum so big deal - matter of fact, what am I doing in here getting offended? Well, I'm not offended, but I just wanted to make sure Fitz got some straight answers from both sides of the crankshaft if he was TRULY considering both.

Fitz...before you write your check, let me ask you - Are you planning on laminating your dyno sheet and showing it to people? Because if so, you are making the right choice. You have a very versatile motor that will make huge power if you want it to and will spend for it. I see plenty of 514 owners who have laminated dyno sheets. Don't think I've met an FE owner yet who was showing off his dyno sheet. No need.

Whatever you do, Fitz, enjoy. If it has a V8 and sidepipes, you will be happy. If you want to win races, throw a lot of money at said V8 and you will win races.

Just my $.08

[wakeman]

Just because Byronrace only has a dozen post's does not mean he doesn't know what he is talking about. He also said that he drives countless high hp cars on a daily basis. It is most likely that one of those cars as a sb as well as bb's. Through his experience he finds that the 385 series are the best in HIS opinion.

[MidOHasp]

I know - his post just seemed like he was taking no prisoners in slamming the W motor and touting the 385 series as the greatest thing since flush toilets.

Matter of fact, the only thing I know more of between when I had 12 posts and when I had 300 posts is what I've learned here. Well, I also know that Cottonelle makes the best toilet paper. I came to that conclusion in the past couple of months, so that too.

Byron, I'm sorry I missed your 2nd post in this thread - and I have no clue HOW I did. I didn't mean to attack you in my most recent one, I just hate when people seemingly come in out of left field and start slamming one thing or touting the heck out of another thing. I've driven a ton of very fast cars in my life, as well...and as far as bang for the buck goes, there is nothing (in my mind) like Chevy power. To me, the prettiest sounding one was a Ferrari F355. Best power to displacement was a 911 Turbo ('96).

I guess I spend most of the time talking to people here on CC who are trying their hardest to be very accurate in design of their cars. I should know better than to put my feelings about that on someone considering a FFR and a 385 series motor. That is NOT an insult!! That's a fact - MOST people who have a Cobra want a Cobra looking thing that goes good and sounds awesome. The best looking cars I've seen were not necessarily CSX's. Or Kirkhams. Or ANY manufacturer specifically. I've seen them from everyone.

Someone who wants their car to be perfectly historically accurate doesn't buy a FFR. Reality check - they don't buy a SPF either! They buy a Kirkham or a CSX.

So, I do apologize for that - I shouldn't be so anal about being period correct, etc... in this thread. But there are VERY valid points that are great reasons to go with a SB in a FFR car.

From the sounds of Fitz's brief build summary, he is putting a lot of very nice and expensive bits into this car. He DOES care about more than going fast in a straight line (at least it sounds like it). At least consider the weight savings and ease of use of the small block.

But I've said before I'd prefer you used a 385 series motor, myself. One less 408 on the road. The W is already turning into a big "me too" motor. I love its versatility but may have to build an all aluminum one or even an FE motor for "engine number 2" if I get sick of being a "me too".....

Sorry if I offended anyone, but a big part of my character is to try to be fair and balanced (haha...like FOX news) and to let someone see all sides of an issue. But only if they WANT to see both sides of it.

Fitz, you never posted this question in "Small Block Talk" or "FE Talk" - what gives??