AC Continuation or Kirkham

[london]

The Crendon - a replica for connoisseurs!

Gallery : Crendon Replicas

[london]

Originally Posted by KevinW

One of the reasons the Legate car is priced so high is :

(a) Trevor once owned it, although Ive never understood why so few miles on it, if these are genuine, given Trevor is/was a genuine enthusiast;

(b) It has FIA papers, so is qualified to be used in historic racing. I beleive this means demonstrating some right to be considered as historic. so some dubious claim that the chassis was actually welded up before Jan 1970 is needed I think, and ofcourse, a suitable year of registration

http://www.hscc.org.uk/resources/HRS...egs%202011.pdf
http://www.goodmanderrick.co.uk/__da...l_passport.pdf

[so from last link.... come on guys, providing its a FBB and a toploader, roll up and get yer historic FIA papers and double your cars value! ]

(c) as stated earlier it does have a proper ali body fettled on the original bucks (pardon the pun )

Its a murky business, and anyone with an ounce of nouce will now that a COX5XXXX never existed in the 60s.

Incidently I have been quietly tracking the passage of the Legate car over the past year or two. It appears to me to be a car that is regualrly passed around different dealerships, and always for an asking price of approx £250-260k, when the dealer can be honest enough to state upfront rather than some POA crap that you sometimes see on AC or Shelby-badged cars.

Which at around $420,000 is probably $140,000 more than the car would make without the '1966' registration and historic FIA papers.

[KevinW]

well, this whole historic racing thing got me interested on the rights of replicas or not for historic racing.

So after a little digging I also found this

http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...istoric_qa.pdf

and this correspondence between the president of the FIA, our own tabloid favourite, Max Mosely and Mr Robin Stainer, AC Owners' Club (ACOC) Cobra registrar (scroll down on the link)

Historic Cars - Questions and Answers

... so it seems to me that to go historic racing, then using the old adage

'if it look like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck'...

then it would appear that if you have a cobra with a period correct chassis and an ali body, and provided it has enough period fittings, (incl Ford engine + toploader) then a cobra replica will be eligible for an HTP - thats an Historic Technical Passport. This makes no claims on originality or provenance, but simply says the vehicle meets the technical requirements to be entered into an historic racing event. I'm not usually a fan of EU regulation, but it appears the FIA has been forced into this situation on 'technical discrimination' grounds.

(Provenance, and thus potential historical value are dealt with seperately in the HC or Heritage Certificate. These cost 4-figure sums and upwards requiring detailed inspection and proof of history, and proof a car's genuine originality).

..... so, Im wondering if that Legate car basically has simply just got itself a HTP. Cost is about $600 or so.

The HC would be impossible to obtain with this car as it has no history that it can claim.

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by london

The Crendon - a replica for connoisseurs!

Gallery : Crendon Replicas

- thanks!

i would show you some pics of some other details ive also added to my car hosted on the uk cobraclub site, but its currently down due to a fraud scam which police are investigating.

[london]

Originally Posted by KevinW

One of the reasons the Legate car is priced so high is :

(a) Trevor once owned it, although Ive never understood why so few miles on it, if these are genuine, given Trevor is/was a genuine enthusiast;

(b) It has FIA papers, so is qualified to be used in historic racing. I beleive this means demonstrating some right to be considered as historic. so some dubious claim that the chassis was actually welded up before Jan 1970 is needed I think, and ofcourse, a suitable year of registration

http://www.hscc.org.uk/resources/HRS...egs%202011.pdf
http://www.goodmanderrick.co.uk/__da...l_passport.pdf

[so from last link.... come on guys, providing its a FBB and a toploader, roll up and get yer historic FIA papers and double your cars value! ]

(c) as stated earlier it does have a proper ali body fettled on the original bucks (pardon the pun )

Its a murky business, and anyone with an ounce of nouce will now that a COX5XXXX never existed in the 60s.

Incidently I have been quietly tracking the passage of the Legate car over the past year or two. It appears to me to be a car that is regualrly passed around different dealerships, and always for an asking price of approx £250-260k, when the dealer can be honest enough to state upfront rather than some POA crap that you sometimes see on AC or Shelby-badged cars.

The attached certificate of authenticity may be of interest -this relates to COB 5002 another AC 'continuation' 427, completed in 2003.

http://www.classicdriver.co.uk/uk/fi...lCarID=1789514

[hurricaneharold]

Originally Posted by london

Here's another one: COX 3361 which according to Coys, 'is an authorised continuation from Carroll Shelby's export Cobras from the 1960s' . Coys also say that this is 'a Shelby approved AC Cobra Mk III'.

http://www.coys.co.uk/auction.php?it...1&auctionID=13

It's debatable why Shelby would need to approve an AC produced car, but I would be very surprised if he had!

The first 2 cars in the 'continuation' series, COB 5001 and COB 5002 are also on sale, both cars in S/C guise and colours.

I can not see why this car would have been listed as a Shelby approved car as he had nothing to do with it,the car was built by Steve Gray and his team at Brooklands,the body and chassis were supplied by AC.

Steve built the car after AC went into liquidation when they were based at Frimley.

I have seen this car in the flesh, a very nice car,it is now for sale in the States.

[hurricaneharold]

Originally Posted by london

Which at around $420,000 is probably $140,000 more than the car would make without the '1966' registration and historic FIA papers.

The car Trevor owned is Cox 5012, which was not built by AC ,he bought the chassis and body from them,and had the car built by someone else,which could explain why he had such a hard time getting the car registered

[Trevor Legate]

Well, nice to see a discourse about my car. However, a pm would have saved much quesswork, non?

Now for some facts:
Did I register the car? No
Did I obtain FIA papers? No
Did I supply the full and accurate facts re the build to the new owner? Yes
Is that info on the dealers site cr*p? Yes

Many reasons for the low mileage of course. Try filling a 37-gallon gas tank for starters...and then think about 8-10 mpg.

[london]

Originally Posted by hurricaneharold

I can not see why this car would have been listed as a Shelby approved car as he had nothing to do with it,the car was built by Steve Gray and his team at Brooklands,the body and chassis were supplied by AC.

Steve built the car after AC went into liquidation when they were based at Frimley.

I have seen this car in the flesh, a very nice car,it is now for sale in the States.

COX 3361 is being sold by Albion Motorcars in Belgium for 275,000 Euros (£243,000 or $393,000) - it failed to meet its reserve recently at Coys in the UK. Nevertheless a very, very nice car!

# Welcome at Albion Motorcars.com #


An earlier Angliss car, COX 6136 is on sale in the US:

Home


Anyone taking the advert for COX 5012 at face value would believe that the car was built by AC / Shelby in the 1960s and rebuilt by AC in the early 2000s. A very misleading advertisement!

Hofmann's - AC - Cobra 427 MkIII

[hurricaneharold]

"Anyone taking the advert for COX 5012 at face value would believe that the car was built by AC / Shelby in the 1960s and rebuilt by AC in the early 2000s. A very misleading advertisement! "

Trevor I hope I have not upset you with the comment about your car, I only mentioned it as you say the advert selling the car is incorrect,you have always been very honest regarding the car.

I also emailed the seller quite some time ago,saying the add is misleading.

Anyone wanting to by a Cobra would know by the chassis No that the car was not built in the 60`s,but to say that the car has been rebuilt by AC is as you say a load of cr*p.

[Trevor Legate]

Whereas I did not get in touch with the dealer since by their very nature they are....economical with the truth. Always, continually, without fail. In varying degrees of course, but all prone to slight exaggerations. :-)

As with any second-hand motor, any buyer should do their homework before parting with the folding. Not difficult surely? Caveat emptor and all that jazz.....

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by hurricaneharold

Trevor I hope I have not upset you with the comment about your car, I only mentioned it as you say the advert selling the car is incorrect,you have always been very honest regarding the car.

I also emailed the seller quite some time ago,saying the add is misleading.

Just want to echo both statements above.

[london]

Trevor

I would also like to apologise if I have upset you. I have to confess though that since I turned 50, I have become less concerned about upsetting people. So please don't take me the wrong way when I ask you how much of COX 5012 was completed by AC and how much by you and Gerry?


Mark

[Trevor Legate]

Since I turned 60, I'll outdo you in the 'couldn't give a ****' stakes!! :-)

The answer is: 01293 511481 or 07986 112694.

[london]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

Since I turned 60, I'll outdo you in the 'couldn't give a ****' stakes!! :-)

The answer is: 01293 511481 or 07986 112694.

Trevor.


Gus Meyjes is proposing to set up a register of all the AC 'continuation' cars not in the ACOC Thames Ditton and Mk IV Registers - the club currently does not have a formal record. The proposal will be to include all fully completed cars, those partially completed by AC, and possibly the MkV, VI and Iconic. He's sent a request to the powers that be at the club. We'll see whether the 'old guard' accept his proposals.

I'm sure Gus will be interested in the history behind COX 5012!

After reading excerpts over the years, I've finally taken the plunge and bought a copy of 'Cobra, The First 40 Years'. Can't think why I've waited this long. It's a right riveting read! I didn't know that Angliss (AC) and McLuskey (for Shelby) produced continuation cars with the same chassis numbers.


Mark


Mark

[london]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

Since I turned 60, I'll outdo you in the 'couldn't give a ****' stakes!! :-)

The answer is: 01293 511481 or 07986 112694.

Thanks for the info - COX 5012 body and chassis built by AC Cars at Frimley around 2002/03, Steve Gray of Brooklands Motor Company put the body on the frame and the car was completed by Gerry Hawkridge around the end of 2004.

An AC Brooklands Hawk Special!

[What'saCobra?]

Which "AC Cars" was that, then?

AC Cars Ltd. GB registry company
AC Cars Group, Ltd. GB registry, owned by Pride Automotive, Inc. Delaware Registry
AC Cars, Ltc. Malta registry company

Or, perhaps another varient? Does it matter?

Just askin'

[DougD]

This conversation smacks of familiarity.

Old Shelby Cobra? New Shelby Cobra?

Old AC Cobra? New AC Cobra?

I thought that the "drunks under the bridge" had ceased production years ago........

[What'saCobra?]

Having been smacked by familiarity at least once, i suppose the significance of source depends upon whose oxen are being AlGored.

Some feel (me!) that since the sale of AC Cars, Ltd. was forced by banks relying on and perpetrating lies, deceptions and cash commitments never honored in the breech, little subsequent "production" contains provenance of merit. As my own CSX 3058 is AC Cars, Ltd. (GB registry), i am certainly biased.

But, having confessed my gelded perspective, i have always said that ALL Cobras have real value in history... the more the merrier, including the kit genre and the very fine reproductions and improvements available (See Kirkham, for sure). Only the future purchasers will select their contemporary values, expressed in monetary exchange. Many dealer types have their biases, expressed usually as a function of their current inventory and cash needs, as so adroitly expressed by our own T Legate.

But, there is plenty of room for both opinion, expression and historical accuracy. It is when the historical facts are ignored, ignorantly over-stated or avoided that i get heated and itchy. Trevor has been quite clear about his beautiful machine, which is an excellent example of its type. Us oldies thank him for that and recognize that subsequent owners or/and purveyors may not exercise such rigorous candor. Nothin' Hawkridge ships is less than just so, within the definition of its own category.

Most of us know there are only a handful of continuations from AC Cars, Ltd. (GB), but the world contains more than that many claimants. Good for them! Make more, i say. Keep the romance and history coming. Keep SAAC publishing updates to "control" the world! It is only fair for them to publish and critique, as is their wont.

Me! i'll keep readin', writin' and drivin'.

On yes, and thanking CC for the learning space they provide us here.

[london]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

Having been smacked by familiarity at least once, i suppose the significance of source depends upon whose oxen are being AlGored.

Some feel (me!) that since the sale of AC Cars, Ltd. was forced by banks relying on and perpetrating lies, deceptions and cash commitments never honored in the breech, little subsequent "production" contains provenance of merit. As my own CSX 3058 is AC Cars, Ltd. (GB registry), i am certainly biased.

But, having confessed my gelded perspective, i have always said that ALL Cobras have real value in history... the more the merrier, including the kit genre and the very fine reproductions and improvements available (See Kirkham, for sure). Only the future purchasers will select their contemporary values, expressed in monetary exchange. Many dealer types have their biases, expressed usually as a function of their current inventory and cash needs, as so adroitly expressed by our own T Legate.

But, there is plenty of room for both opinion, expression and historical accuracy. It is when the historical facts are ignored, ignorantly over-stated or avoided that i get heated and itchy. Trevor has been quite clear about his beautiful machine, which is an excellent example of its type. Us oldies thank him for that and recognize that subsequent owners or/and purveyors may not exercise such rigorous candor. Nothin' Hawkridge ships is less than just so, within the definition of its own category.

Most of us know there are only a handful of continuations from AC Cars, Ltd. (GB), but the world contains more than that many claimants. Good for them! Make more, i say. Keep the romance and history coming. Keep SAAC publishing updates to "control" the world! It is only fair for them to publish and critique, as is their wont.

Me! i'll keep readin', writin' and drivin'.

On yes, and thanking CC for the learning space they provide us here.

Very philosophical, and you've adopted TL from over the seas as one of your own. Wonderful!

CSX 3058 has a Shelby 'twin', I believe.