AC Continuation or Kirkham

[london]

Originally Posted by KevinW

One of the reasons the Legate car is priced so high is :

(a) Trevor once owned it, although Ive never understood why so few miles on it, if these are genuine, given Trevor is/was a genuine enthusiast;

(b) It has FIA papers, so is qualified to be used in historic racing. I beleive this means demonstrating some right to be considered as historic. so some dubious claim that the chassis was actually welded up before Jan 1970 is needed I think, and ofcourse, a suitable year of registration

http://www.hscc.org.uk/resources/HRS...egs%202011.pdf
http://www.goodmanderrick.co.uk/__da...l_passport.pdf

[so from last link.... come on guys, providing its a FBB and a toploader, roll up and get yer historic FIA papers and double your cars value! ]

(c) as stated earlier it does have a proper ali body fettled on the original bucks (pardon the pun )

Its a murky business, and anyone with an ounce of nouce will now that a COX5XXXX never existed in the 60s.

Incidently I have been quietly tracking the passage of the Legate car over the past year or two. It appears to me to be a car that is regualrly passed around different dealerships, and always for an asking price of approx £250-260k, when the dealer can be honest enough to state upfront rather than some POA crap that you sometimes see on AC or Shelby-badged cars.

The attached certificate of authenticity may be of interest -this relates to COB 5002 another AC 'continuation' 427, completed in 2003.

http://www.classicdriver.co.uk/uk/fi...lCarID=1789514

[london]

The Crendon - a replica for connoisseurs!

Gallery : Crendon Replicas

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by london

The Crendon - a replica for connoisseurs!

Gallery : Crendon Replicas

- thanks!

i would show you some pics of some other details ive also added to my car hosted on the uk cobraclub site, but its currently down due to a fraud scam which police are investigating.

[Trevor Legate]

Well, nice to see a discourse about my car. However, a pm would have saved much quesswork, non?

Now for some facts:
Did I register the car? No
Did I obtain FIA papers? No
Did I supply the full and accurate facts re the build to the new owner? Yes
Is that info on the dealers site cr*p? Yes

Many reasons for the low mileage of course. Try filling a 37-gallon gas tank for starters...and then think about 8-10 mpg.

[hurricaneharold]

"Anyone taking the advert for COX 5012 at face value would believe that the car was built by AC / Shelby in the 1960s and rebuilt by AC in the early 2000s. A very misleading advertisement! "

Trevor I hope I have not upset you with the comment about your car, I only mentioned it as you say the advert selling the car is incorrect,you have always been very honest regarding the car.

I also emailed the seller quite some time ago,saying the add is misleading.

Anyone wanting to by a Cobra would know by the chassis No that the car was not built in the 60`s,but to say that the car has been rebuilt by AC is as you say a load of cr*p.

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by hurricaneharold

Trevor I hope I have not upset you with the comment about your car, I only mentioned it as you say the advert selling the car is incorrect,you have always been very honest regarding the car.

I also emailed the seller quite some time ago,saying the add is misleading.

Just want to echo both statements above.

[Trevor Legate]

Whereas I did not get in touch with the dealer since by their very nature they are....economical with the truth. Always, continually, without fail. In varying degrees of course, but all prone to slight exaggerations. :-)

As with any second-hand motor, any buyer should do their homework before parting with the folding. Not difficult surely? Caveat emptor and all that jazz.....

[london]

Trevor

I would also like to apologise if I have upset you. I have to confess though that since I turned 50, I have become less concerned about upsetting people. So please don't take me the wrong way when I ask you how much of COX 5012 was completed by AC and how much by you and Gerry?


Mark

[Trevor Legate]

Since I turned 60, I'll outdo you in the 'couldn't give a ****' stakes!! :-)

The answer is: 01293 511481 or 07986 112694.

[london]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

Since I turned 60, I'll outdo you in the 'couldn't give a ****' stakes!! :-)

The answer is: 01293 511481 or 07986 112694.

Trevor.


Gus Meyjes is proposing to set up a register of all the AC 'continuation' cars not in the ACOC Thames Ditton and Mk IV Registers - the club currently does not have a formal record. The proposal will be to include all fully completed cars, those partially completed by AC, and possibly the MkV, VI and Iconic. He's sent a request to the powers that be at the club. We'll see whether the 'old guard' accept his proposals.

I'm sure Gus will be interested in the history behind COX 5012!

After reading excerpts over the years, I've finally taken the plunge and bought a copy of 'Cobra, The First 40 Years'. Can't think why I've waited this long. It's a right riveting read! I didn't know that Angliss (AC) and McLuskey (for Shelby) produced continuation cars with the same chassis numbers.


Mark


Mark

[london]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

Since I turned 60, I'll outdo you in the 'couldn't give a ****' stakes!! :-)

The answer is: 01293 511481 or 07986 112694.

Thanks for the info - COX 5012 body and chassis built by AC Cars at Frimley around 2002/03, Steve Gray of Brooklands Motor Company put the body on the frame and the car was completed by Gerry Hawkridge around the end of 2004.

An AC Brooklands Hawk Special!

[What'saCobra?]

Which "AC Cars" was that, then?

AC Cars Ltd. GB registry company
AC Cars Group, Ltd. GB registry, owned by Pride Automotive, Inc. Delaware Registry
AC Cars, Ltc. Malta registry company

Or, perhaps another varient? Does it matter?

Just askin'

[DougD]

This conversation smacks of familiarity.

Old Shelby Cobra? New Shelby Cobra?

Old AC Cobra? New AC Cobra?

I thought that the "drunks under the bridge" had ceased production years ago........

[What'saCobra?]

Having been smacked by familiarity at least once, i suppose the significance of source depends upon whose oxen are being AlGored.

Some feel (me!) that since the sale of AC Cars, Ltd. was forced by banks relying on and perpetrating lies, deceptions and cash commitments never honored in the breech, little subsequent "production" contains provenance of merit. As my own CSX 3058 is AC Cars, Ltd. (GB registry), i am certainly biased.

But, having confessed my gelded perspective, i have always said that ALL Cobras have real value in history... the more the merrier, including the kit genre and the very fine reproductions and improvements available (See Kirkham, for sure). Only the future purchasers will select their contemporary values, expressed in monetary exchange. Many dealer types have their biases, expressed usually as a function of their current inventory and cash needs, as so adroitly expressed by our own T Legate.

But, there is plenty of room for both opinion, expression and historical accuracy. It is when the historical facts are ignored, ignorantly over-stated or avoided that i get heated and itchy. Trevor has been quite clear about his beautiful machine, which is an excellent example of its type. Us oldies thank him for that and recognize that subsequent owners or/and purveyors may not exercise such rigorous candor. Nothin' Hawkridge ships is less than just so, within the definition of its own category.

Most of us know there are only a handful of continuations from AC Cars, Ltd. (GB), but the world contains more than that many claimants. Good for them! Make more, i say. Keep the romance and history coming. Keep SAAC publishing updates to "control" the world! It is only fair for them to publish and critique, as is their wont.

Me! i'll keep readin', writin' and drivin'.

On yes, and thanking CC for the learning space they provide us here.

[london]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

Having been smacked by familiarity at least once, i suppose the significance of source depends upon whose oxen are being AlGored.

Some feel (me!) that since the sale of AC Cars, Ltd. was forced by banks relying on and perpetrating lies, deceptions and cash commitments never honored in the breech, little subsequent "production" contains provenance of merit. As my own CSX 3058 is AC Cars, Ltd. (GB registry), i am certainly biased.

But, having confessed my gelded perspective, i have always said that ALL Cobras have real value in history... the more the merrier, including the kit genre and the very fine reproductions and improvements available (See Kirkham, for sure). Only the future purchasers will select their contemporary values, expressed in monetary exchange. Many dealer types have their biases, expressed usually as a function of their current inventory and cash needs, as so adroitly expressed by our own T Legate.

But, there is plenty of room for both opinion, expression and historical accuracy. It is when the historical facts are ignored, ignorantly over-stated or avoided that i get heated and itchy. Trevor has been quite clear about his beautiful machine, which is an excellent example of its type. Us oldies thank him for that and recognize that subsequent owners or/and purveyors may not exercise such rigorous candor. Nothin' Hawkridge ships is less than just so, within the definition of its own category.

Most of us know there are only a handful of continuations from AC Cars, Ltd. (GB), but the world contains more than that many claimants. Good for them! Make more, i say. Keep the romance and history coming. Keep SAAC publishing updates to "control" the world! It is only fair for them to publish and critique, as is their wont.

Me! i'll keep readin', writin' and drivin'.

On yes, and thanking CC for the learning space they provide us here.

Very philosophical, and you've adopted TL from over the seas as one of your own. Wonderful!

CSX 3058 has a Shelby 'twin', I believe.

[hurricaneharold]

I am sure there is more than one Cobra out there with a `twin`, nice one Mark ,did you really need to mention who had built COX 5012 on here ?

[london]

Originally Posted by hurricaneharold

I am sure there is more than one Cobra out there with a `twin`, nice one Mark ,did you really need to mention who had built COX 5012 on here ?

I discussed with third parties before posting what should and shouldn't be mentioned about COX 5012. At £220k+ ($358k) this information should be in the public domain anyway so that potential purchasers can make an informed decision.

[What'saCobra?]

i'd be proud to adopt TL on any side of the pond, sonny.

Knew the skinny about AC v Shel' in the earliest sixties, before Brian A. learned how to solder Screen Frames. i watched SCCA production races won by ACES and Bristol powered AC's before Shelby stopped racing. Knew why Shel' used the AC Cobra moniker on the 260/289's long before "meeting" TL on the web. Still think Rudd and AC were given the once-over by CS quite unfairly. Still think he should've been stung for shipping 428's in "427 Cobras" and lots later falsely creating an unreal line of new "old" chassis with old numbers, never entered (until actually made by Angliss in the early 90's) in the AC Register at Thames Ditton.

Yep, our AC-sourced CSX 3058 IS one of the very few of those chassis duplicated within the McCluskey/Shelby cabal. i am sure you know there was real reason for Angliss to sue CS/SA et al over those lies. But, as said, part of the fun of the AC/Shelby story is the amazing amount of stuff that has and IS happening with that car history. (Just keeping track of the revisionist histories is pretty facinatin'.) Truly makes all the Ferrari shenanigans look small potatoes in comparison. YOU try explaining to someone why his 3058 isn't THIS 3058 some time!

But, i'm not complainin'. Heck, my "real" one cost far far less than those fakes. You must admit the car has stimulated lots of angst, love, hate, avarice, cons, profits and other afflictions during its nearly 50 year history. About like the Duzies, wouldn't you say?

Every time i meet someone with a glass kit or other, i studiously avoid discussing real/continuation/fake issues and ownership, but drill him about driving the car and its handling. Learned a lot about what motivates the purchase of one. A hint: i don't go to shows more than once every few years and only when i am pretty sure i will be the only one in residence.

You are not likely to find me driving in a line of Cobs through the hills and dales. Seems too pat, formulaic and somehow rubs against the iconoclastic image i have of myself and the car. The only line-ups you will find with me in one are either on the starting grid or the police station. This old bird doesn't flock together; just seems unnatural. Sort of going to dinner with my ex-wives. i don't hate 'em, but why bother?

To me, the Cobra remains the most exciting car i've ever driven from the first drive. Driven many faster, louder, worse handling, better handling, far more expensive, far cheaper and it still raises my heart rate. Perhaps it is the 49 years in the seats, or the FORD engines, or the craftsmanship or the time warp or something i cannot quite reach.

Either way, to me they are all great, big and small, famous and common. i hope i can keep this one quite a few more years. Like an old lost love, i am lonely without one.

Having said all that, i aspire to a Kirkham with an aly 482 someday. You can keep the originals. Give me an all ingot modern suspension any day. If i don't have to use EAR plugs, it isn't set-up right.

[With that, he stepped-off the soap-box, reached down and wrapped his good arm around it and waltzed off into the traffic.]

[london]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

But, as said, part of the fun of the AC/Shelby story is the amazing amount of stuff that has and IS happening with that car history. (Just keeping track of the revisionist histories is pretty facinatin'.) Truly makes all the Ferrari shenanigans look small potatoes in comparison.

It's certainly fascinating. 'Cobra - The First 40 Years' identifies most of the AC continuations built since 1990:

The following complete cars and rolling chassis were built to original specifications before 1996: CSX 3056-58, CSX 3070, COB 4000-01, CSX 4002 (title transferred to COB 4000), CSX 4003, COB 4004, CSX 4005-13 - all 427 style cars except COB 4004, a RHD 289 MkII exported to Finland.

AC produced a further 16 continuation 427 cars, 9 of which were sold as complete cars for racing in the early 1990s with a further 7 chassis in various states of completion - chassis numbers from COX 6133.

There were also two 289 FIA cars produced after Mr Lubinsky took over, the first with chassis number COB 1001 (in 2002), the second COX 2610 (in 2003).

Then there were the 8 427 'continuations' built between 2001 and 2003 with chassis numbers COB 5001 - 5010 (nos 5003 and 5009 not used).

Since Trevor's book was published - COX 5012 (as discussed earlier), RS 5037 and 5038 (Ace 2.6 bodies/with Cobra MkII chassis built in 2004 and completed later - RS 5038 - in photo courtesy of Gus Meyjes - has just been completed in the US and has a 260 V8 ), and the final car to be painted at the Frimley factory, COX 3361.

For Sale AC 427 mk111

Then of course, there are the continuation cars built since 2008 by AC Heritage at Brooklands.......

For those who are interested, there's a fascinating thread on the ACOC website following the development of RS 5038:

AC Owners Club - The last RS car is born

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

i'd be proud to adopt TL on any side of the pond, sonny.

Knew the skinny about AC v Shel' in the earliest sixties, before Brian A. learned how to solder Screen Frames. i watched SCCA production races won by ACES and Bristol powered AC's before Shelby stopped racing. Knew why Shel' used the AC Cobra moniker on the 260/289's long before "meeting" TL on the web. Still think Rudd and AC were given the once-over by CS quite unfairly. Still think he should've been stung for shipping 428's in "427 Cobras" and lots later falsely creating an unreal line of new "old" chassis with old numbers, never entered (until actually made by Angliss in the early 90's) in the AC Register at Thames Ditton.

Yep, our AC-sourced CSX 3058 IS one of the very few of those chassis duplicated within the McCluskey/Shelby cabal. i am sure you know there was real reason for Angliss to sue CS/SA et al over those lies. But, as said, part of the fun of the AC/Shelby story is the amazing amount of stuff that has and IS happening with that car history. (Just keeping track of the revisionist histories is pretty facinatin'.) Truly makes all the Ferrari shenanigans look small potatoes in comparison. YOU try explaining to someone why his 3058 isn't THIS 3058 some time!

But, i'm not complainin'. Heck, my "real" one cost far far less than those fakes. You must admit the car has stimulated lots of angst, love, hate, avarice, cons, profits and other afflictions during its nearly 50 year history. About like the Duzies, wouldn't you say?

Every time i meet someone with a glass kit or other, i studiously avoid discussing real/continuation/fake issues and ownership, but drill him about driving the car and its handling. Learned a lot about what motivates the purchase of one. A hint: i don't go to shows more than once every few years and only when i am pretty sure i will be the only one in residence.

You are not likely to find me driving in a line of Cobs through the hills and dales. Seems too pat, formulaic and somehow rubs against the iconoclastic image i have of myself and the car. The only line-ups you will find with me in one are either on the starting grid or the police station. This old bird doesn't flock together; just seems unnatural. Sort of going to dinner with my ex-wives. i don't hate 'em, but why bother?

To me, the Cobra remains the most exciting car i've ever driven from the first drive. Driven many faster, louder, worse handling, better handling, far more expensive, far cheaper and it still raises my heart rate. Perhaps it is the 49 years in the seats, or the FORD engines, or the craftsmanship or the time warp or something i cannot quite reach.

Either way, to me they are all great, big and small, famous and common. i hope i can keep this one quite a few more years. Like an old lost love, i am lonely without one.

Having said all that, i aspire to a Kirkham with an aly 482 someday. You can keep the originals. Give me an all ingot modern suspension any day. If i don't have to use EAR plugs, it isn't set-up right.

[With that, he stepped-off the soap-box, reached down and wrapped his good arm around it and waltzed off into the traffic.]

Made me laugh.

Mark - thanks for the link.
I reckon I can make better footboxes than that.

Kevin