AC Continuation or Kirkham

[hurricaneharold]

I am sure there is more than one Cobra out there with a `twin`, nice one Mark ,did you really need to mention who had built COX 5012 on here ?

[london]

Originally Posted by hurricaneharold

I am sure there is more than one Cobra out there with a `twin`, nice one Mark ,did you really need to mention who had built COX 5012 on here ?

I discussed with third parties before posting what should and shouldn't be mentioned about COX 5012. At £220k+ ($358k) this information should be in the public domain anyway so that potential purchasers can make an informed decision.

[What'saCobra?]

i'd be proud to adopt TL on any side of the pond, sonny.

Knew the skinny about AC v Shel' in the earliest sixties, before Brian A. learned how to solder Screen Frames. i watched SCCA production races won by ACES and Bristol powered AC's before Shelby stopped racing. Knew why Shel' used the AC Cobra moniker on the 260/289's long before "meeting" TL on the web. Still think Rudd and AC were given the once-over by CS quite unfairly. Still think he should've been stung for shipping 428's in "427 Cobras" and lots later falsely creating an unreal line of new "old" chassis with old numbers, never entered (until actually made by Angliss in the early 90's) in the AC Register at Thames Ditton.

Yep, our AC-sourced CSX 3058 IS one of the very few of those chassis duplicated within the McCluskey/Shelby cabal. i am sure you know there was real reason for Angliss to sue CS/SA et al over those lies. But, as said, part of the fun of the AC/Shelby story is the amazing amount of stuff that has and IS happening with that car history. (Just keeping track of the revisionist histories is pretty facinatin'.) Truly makes all the Ferrari shenanigans look small potatoes in comparison. YOU try explaining to someone why his 3058 isn't THIS 3058 some time!

But, i'm not complainin'. Heck, my "real" one cost far far less than those fakes. You must admit the car has stimulated lots of angst, love, hate, avarice, cons, profits and other afflictions during its nearly 50 year history. About like the Duzies, wouldn't you say?

Every time i meet someone with a glass kit or other, i studiously avoid discussing real/continuation/fake issues and ownership, but drill him about driving the car and its handling. Learned a lot about what motivates the purchase of one. A hint: i don't go to shows more than once every few years and only when i am pretty sure i will be the only one in residence.

You are not likely to find me driving in a line of Cobs through the hills and dales. Seems too pat, formulaic and somehow rubs against the iconoclastic image i have of myself and the car. The only line-ups you will find with me in one are either on the starting grid or the police station. This old bird doesn't flock together; just seems unnatural. Sort of going to dinner with my ex-wives. i don't hate 'em, but why bother?

To me, the Cobra remains the most exciting car i've ever driven from the first drive. Driven many faster, louder, worse handling, better handling, far more expensive, far cheaper and it still raises my heart rate. Perhaps it is the 49 years in the seats, or the FORD engines, or the craftsmanship or the time warp or something i cannot quite reach.

Either way, to me they are all great, big and small, famous and common. i hope i can keep this one quite a few more years. Like an old lost love, i am lonely without one.

Having said all that, i aspire to a Kirkham with an aly 482 someday. You can keep the originals. Give me an all ingot modern suspension any day. If i don't have to use EAR plugs, it isn't set-up right.

[With that, he stepped-off the soap-box, reached down and wrapped his good arm around it and waltzed off into the traffic.]

[london]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

But, as said, part of the fun of the AC/Shelby story is the amazing amount of stuff that has and IS happening with that car history. (Just keeping track of the revisionist histories is pretty facinatin'.) Truly makes all the Ferrari shenanigans look small potatoes in comparison.

It's certainly fascinating. 'Cobra - The First 40 Years' identifies most of the AC continuations built since 1990:

The following complete cars and rolling chassis were built to original specifications before 1996: CSX 3056-58, CSX 3070, COB 4000-01, CSX 4002 (title transferred to COB 4000), CSX 4003, COB 4004, CSX 4005-13 - all 427 style cars except COB 4004, a RHD 289 MkII exported to Finland.

AC produced a further 16 continuation 427 cars, 9 of which were sold as complete cars for racing in the early 1990s with a further 7 chassis in various states of completion - chassis numbers from COX 6133.

There were also two 289 FIA cars produced after Mr Lubinsky took over, the first with chassis number COB 1001 (in 2002), the second COX 2610 (in 2003).

Then there were the 8 427 'continuations' built between 2001 and 2003 with chassis numbers COB 5001 - 5010 (nos 5003 and 5009 not used).

Since Trevor's book was published - COX 5012 (as discussed earlier), RS 5037 and 5038 (Ace 2.6 bodies/with Cobra MkII chassis built in 2004 and completed later - RS 5038 - in photo courtesy of Gus Meyjes - has just been completed in the US and has a 260 V8 ), and the final car to be painted at the Frimley factory, COX 3361.

For Sale AC 427 mk111

Then of course, there are the continuation cars built since 2008 by AC Heritage at Brooklands.......

For those who are interested, there's a fascinating thread on the ACOC website following the development of RS 5038:

AC Owners Club - The last RS car is born

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

i'd be proud to adopt TL on any side of the pond, sonny.

Knew the skinny about AC v Shel' in the earliest sixties, before Brian A. learned how to solder Screen Frames. i watched SCCA production races won by ACES and Bristol powered AC's before Shelby stopped racing. Knew why Shel' used the AC Cobra moniker on the 260/289's long before "meeting" TL on the web. Still think Rudd and AC were given the once-over by CS quite unfairly. Still think he should've been stung for shipping 428's in "427 Cobras" and lots later falsely creating an unreal line of new "old" chassis with old numbers, never entered (until actually made by Angliss in the early 90's) in the AC Register at Thames Ditton.

Yep, our AC-sourced CSX 3058 IS one of the very few of those chassis duplicated within the McCluskey/Shelby cabal. i am sure you know there was real reason for Angliss to sue CS/SA et al over those lies. But, as said, part of the fun of the AC/Shelby story is the amazing amount of stuff that has and IS happening with that car history. (Just keeping track of the revisionist histories is pretty facinatin'.) Truly makes all the Ferrari shenanigans look small potatoes in comparison. YOU try explaining to someone why his 3058 isn't THIS 3058 some time!

But, i'm not complainin'. Heck, my "real" one cost far far less than those fakes. You must admit the car has stimulated lots of angst, love, hate, avarice, cons, profits and other afflictions during its nearly 50 year history. About like the Duzies, wouldn't you say?

Every time i meet someone with a glass kit or other, i studiously avoid discussing real/continuation/fake issues and ownership, but drill him about driving the car and its handling. Learned a lot about what motivates the purchase of one. A hint: i don't go to shows more than once every few years and only when i am pretty sure i will be the only one in residence.

You are not likely to find me driving in a line of Cobs through the hills and dales. Seems too pat, formulaic and somehow rubs against the iconoclastic image i have of myself and the car. The only line-ups you will find with me in one are either on the starting grid or the police station. This old bird doesn't flock together; just seems unnatural. Sort of going to dinner with my ex-wives. i don't hate 'em, but why bother?

To me, the Cobra remains the most exciting car i've ever driven from the first drive. Driven many faster, louder, worse handling, better handling, far more expensive, far cheaper and it still raises my heart rate. Perhaps it is the 49 years in the seats, or the FORD engines, or the craftsmanship or the time warp or something i cannot quite reach.

Either way, to me they are all great, big and small, famous and common. i hope i can keep this one quite a few more years. Like an old lost love, i am lonely without one.

Having said all that, i aspire to a Kirkham with an aly 482 someday. You can keep the originals. Give me an all ingot modern suspension any day. If i don't have to use EAR plugs, it isn't set-up right.

[With that, he stepped-off the soap-box, reached down and wrapped his good arm around it and waltzed off into the traffic.]

Made me laugh.

Mark - thanks for the link.
I reckon I can make better footboxes than that.

Kevin

[london]

Originally Posted by KevinW

I reckon I can make better footboxes than that.

Kevin, I'll leave you to tell Gus!

Whats'aCobra - an additional Kirkham or one to replace CSX 3058?

[What'saCobra?]

Nice copy job, partner. Thanks for that.

Now, your mission should you decide to accept it: publish which of these cars was completed by which of the several corporations and when. (Hint: nearly all of the cars' serial numbers have meaning, when fabricated/shipped by AC under Angliss. Further post-continuation production cars feom successor "AC" companies may have less reliable number meaning, depending on which of the several AC follow-on companies completed/registered/serialized the cars.)

Even those produced by AC Cars Ltd. (GB) changed numbers post shipment based on various political and technical (read: tax) needs. For instance, COB 6133 (and others) left the factory Registered as CSX 4003. Apparently, at some point after the cars became known to Shelby. At his insistence the serial numbers were revised out of Shelby's intended band of HIS "continuations" (CSX 4000 series, which DID happen at SA). i suppose it was deemed more wise to avoid litigation with Shel, who may have had FORD's tacit support on this issue. Certainly, the COX designation is correct to AC history, though not usually intended for US consumption, rather Europe. Likely, Shel' argued (conveniently, at that moment) that the S in CSX stood for Shelby.

Further, the (dark blue) 289 MKII was not shipped to Finland. Rather, it has remained in GB, quietly residing in a professional collection as the very last of its type before the Lubinsky massacre. It was finished as a RHD, converted to LHD upon my request, then reverse converted back to RHD at the instructions of its (i believe still) current English owner. When first completed in 1995, it had an original 289 from an original car, shipped upon purchase from Michigan in the US. The Registry indicates that the chassis had been used as a body jig by AC in Thames Ditton for some time. Brian confirmed that at the time.

Even further, some chassis' have been swapped in the past to better reflect owner intent or transient/temporary tax issues. (For instance, i know the specific details ((translation: paperwork and data plate) of an original McLaren M8F whose serial numbers changed for each trip from Switzerland to other EU races and the British factory during the original Can-Am series. The factory participated in this convenience to assist their customer with oddball laws and International documentation requirements.) So a careful and knowledgeable inspection of an actual chassis is necessary to learn better the real/original/current chassis status. If we're going to pay current numbers for these special and valuable chassis/cars, we need help to ensure our anticipated values. The Shelby scam with false "left-over chassis laid down in the day and forgotten" ought to remain the high-watermark warning to potential buyers/investors.

[london]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

Nice copy job, partner. Thanks for that.

Now, your mission should you decide to accept it: publish which of these cars was completed by which of the several corporations and when. (Hint: nearly all of the cars' serial numbers have meaning, when fabricated/shipped by AC under Angliss. Further post-continuation production cars feom successor "AC" companies may have less reliable number meaning, depending on which of the several AC follow-on companies completed/registered/serialized the cars.)

Even those produced by AC Cars Ltd. (GB) changed numbers post shipment based on various political and technical (read: tax) needs. For instance, COB 6133 (and others) left the factory Registered as CSX 4003. Apparently, at some point after the cars became known to Shelby, at his insistence the serial numbers were revised out of Shelby's intended band of HIS "continuations" (CSX 4000 series, which DID happen at SA). i suppose it was deemed more wise to avoid litigation with Shel, who may have had FORD's tacit support on this issue. Certainly, the COX designation is correct to AC history, though not usually intended for US consumption, rather Europe. Likely, Shel' argued (conveniently, at that moment) that the S in CSX stood for Shelby.

Further, the (dark blue) 289 MKII was not shipped to Finland. Rather, it has remained in GB, quietly residing in a professional collection as the very last of its type before the Lubinsky massacre. It was finished as a RHD, converted to LHD upon my request, then reverse converted back to RHD at the instructions of its (i believe still) current English owner. When first completed in 1995, it had an original 289 from an original car, shipped upon purchase from Michigan in the US. The Registry indicates that the chassis had been used as a body jig by AC in Thames Ditton for some time. Brian confirmed that at the time.

Even further, some chassis' have been swapped in the past to better reflect owner intent or transient/temporary tax issues. (For instance, i know the specific details ((translation: paperwork and data plate) of an original McLaren M8F whose serial numbers changed for each trip from Switzerland to other EU races and the British factory during the original Can-Am series. The factory participated in this convenience to assist their customer with oddball laws and International documentation requirements.) So a careful and knowledgeable inspection of an actual chassis is necessary to learn better the real/original/current chassis status. If we're going to pay current numbers for these special and valuable chassis/cars, we need help to ensure our anticipated values. The Shelby scam with false "left-over chassis laid down in the day and forgotten" ought to remain the high-watermark warning to potential buyers/investors.

This is very interesting and highlights how difficult it will be for anyone wishing to document an accurate record of the AC Continuation cars. If only I could get hold of COB 4004 - a beautiful car!

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by london

Kevin, I'll leave you to tell Gus!

Whats'aCobra - an additional Kirkham or one to replace CSX 3058?

i'll post some pics when ive more time.

[london]

Originally Posted by KevinW

i'll post some pics when ive more time.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Crendon.

In the meantime, here's a link to one of AC Heritage's latest 427s, COB 5014:

Galleries

[B.M.B.C]

Originally Posted by london

I'm looking forward to seeing the Crendon.

In the meantime, here's a link to one of AC Heritage's latest 427s, COB 5014:

Galleries

How would a car like that cost to build?

Cheers

[london]

I've heard figures of at least £160,000 ($261,000) mentioned.

[Historybuff]

I read all the postings in this subject area, but there was no ref. to where Alan Lubinsky went after he decamped from Malta, and some U.S. state (Delaware?) where some government entity had facilitated him setting up production. The last I saw the AC badge being used in an advertisement was for a kit car called the Venom, sort of a highly stylized take on the Cobra 427, very beautiful but not attempting to be a reproduction. It may be made in South Africa (isn't that where Lubinsky is from?) I assumed the use of the AC badge in that ad was only as sort of a "recommendation" as one author is often quoted on the cover of another author's book, not that Lubinsky is producing the Venom.

[Historybuff]

I think California fostered this mess by allowing sometime back any resident of their state to buy a kit Cobra and to call it a Cobra on the title and even to stamp on their own serial number. (which is why, if the DMV would sell you the list of Cobra owners, it would be several thousand cars longer than it should be if only confined to CSX2000 and CSX3000 cars).
Ironically by the way the Department of Motor Vehicles will still sell you an owner's name based on the license plate number you give them but now they write the owner first asking for permission--a law enacted after some stalker murdered a TV starlet whose address he bought from the DMV.
But where some previous postings in this subject area tell of a dealer taking a continuation car or reproduction and advertising it as an A.C. Cobra --that ought to be a crime. If these dealers (and auction companies ) are not stopped from doing so, I predict it could lead to some nasty repercussions at the big auctions, similar to when one auction company sold an Auto Union race car only to find out it was only assembled of parts--they then decided to get out of the car auction business altogether! I wish there was a registrar in the Cobra world as well versed as Marcel Massini in the Ferrari world who can be counted on to regularly poke holes when what he views as a "false" Ferrari is put on sale or display.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by Historybuff

I read all the postings in this subject area, but there was no ref. to where Alan Lubinsky went after he decamped from Malta, and some U.S. state (Delaware?) where some government entity had facilitated him setting up production. The last I saw the AC badge being used in an advertisement was for a kit car called the Venom, sort of a highly stylized take on the Cobra 427, very beautiful but not attempting to be a reproduction. It may be made in South Africa (isn't that where Lubinsky is from?) I assumed the use of the AC badge in that ad was only as sort of a "recommendation" as one author is often quoted on the cover of another author's book, not that Lubinsky is producing the Venom.

Wally,

There is this thing called "Google"...most all of your questions can be answered with a little research there.

Conn. was where he tried to snag some govt. money (pleased to say I helped the New York Times blow that deal out of the water!). Then it was Michigan with the Waco Aircraft guy. Now Germany with a kit car based "AC".

Delaware is where his holding company that controls all of the I.P. and trademarks is registered.

Let your fingers do the typing and don't expect the posters here to do all of your research..........

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Historybuff

I think California fostered this mess by allowing sometime back any resident of their state to buy a kit Cobra and to call it a Cobra on the title and even to stamp on their own serial number. (which is why, if the DMV would sell you the list of Cobra owners, it would be several thousand cars longer than it should be if only confined to CSX2000 and CSX3000 cars).
Ironically by the way the Department of Motor Vehicles will still sell you an owner's name based on the license plate number you give them but now they write the owner first asking for permission--a law enacted after some stalker murdered a TV starlet whose address he bought from the DMV.
But where some previous postings in this subject area tell of a dealer taking a continuation car or reproduction and advertising it as an A.C. Cobra --that ought to be a crime. If these dealers (and auction companies ) are not stopped from doing so, I predict it could lead to some nasty repercussions at the big auctions, similar to when one auction company sold an Auto Union race car only to find out it was only assembled of parts--they then decided to get out of the car auction business altogether! I wish there was a registrar in the Cobra world as well versed as Marcel Massini in the Ferrari world who can be counted on to regularly poke holes when what he views as a "false" Ferrari is put on sale or display.

Wally,

Sometime I feel compelled, like you, to post an item that goes off into as many tangents as possible. It is not just the auction companies. Once I saw an advertisement in a newspaper classified section for a used RX-7 that stated the car had a 4 cylinder engine. What was that used sale guy thinking? He probably lifted the hood and counted the spark plug wires. Wrong, the car doesn't have cylinders, it has two rotors with 2 plugs per rotor housing. A false advertisement! What a crime! A stalker of a starlet might accidentally purchase an RX-7 thinking it has a piston engine, not knowing what kind of potentially expensive money pit a rotary engined car might be. Where are the quality RX-7 registrars? And now I hear the Ferrari owners have a French mime as a registrar. I feel sorry for the Ferrari folks. But Wally, rest assured that SAAC knows a few things about whether Cobras are real or not. You should join SAAC, and get a Cobra registry. Don't worry about Carroll getting upset with you about joining SAAC (in case you missed it, Shelby and SAAC are on good terms these days). And poor Trevor, I don't suppose you ever got around to picking him up from his walkabout to Malta or feeding his dogs when you stopped by Brooklands to do those "AC" tooling spy paintings I suggested you do earlier. I hope that when you leave the state of California that you don't feel legally confined to only write about or paint pictures of cars in the CSX2000 and CSX3000 serial number ranges.

[Flygirl]

This is why I'm setting my sights in a different direction and going with a new ERA. It's a driveable, lower-stress, accurate looking car with little pretense of originality. If it gets a stone chip or shows wear, no big deal; it won't be a garage queen.

Also, I can't afford something with a dollar sign and six figures to the left of the decimal point.
:-)

[computerworks]

...this is the AC MK IV forum....for discussion about AC Cars.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by computerworks

...this is the AC MK IV forum....for discussion about AC Cars.

I know. I have yet to figure out why Wally thinks something he asks about is related to the thread he posts the question in.

[Trevor Legate]

Welcome to the twilight zone....or maybe it's the absinthe I drank during my walk across France....

And re-reading the above - anyone know where COB4004 is now - or is it still 4004??? I think we should be told