Continuation of Thread: Drag race - Kirkham 65 side-oiler vs Ferrari 458 Italia

[tommygold]

CD -- Yeah all that kind of stuff is off limits. There are a variety of software upgrades that would let me humiliate Blitz rather than merely embarrass him badly. And my Ferrari guys wanted to take stuff out of the car to reduce the weight. I'm sure we could put in better spark plugs, etc. All of that is a physical (or near physical, in the case of the ECU software) change to the car; none of that is allowed. I do think there is at least a 25% chance that we'll find out that Blitz's shop did change his car by putting in better carburetors or something and he's just going to forfeit; my investigative team is working on that. -Tom

[CobraDan]

Tom & Dan,
You know none of this would have to be so cutthroat if the bet was for charity or only for bragging rights. You wanted to know how a guy in Florida knew people on ClubCobra from Ohio, California, and New York, it’s because we have always been for charity.

[Mdman352]

Originally Posted by tommygold

CD -- Yeah all that kind of stuff is off limits. There are a variety of software upgrades that would let me humiliate Blitz rather than merely embarrass him badly. And my Ferrari guys wanted to take stuff out of the car to reduce the weight. I'm sure we could put in better spark plugs, etc. All of that is a physical (or near physical, in the case of the ECU software) change to the car; none of that is allowed. I do think there is at least a 25% chance that we'll find out that Blitz's shop did change his car by putting in better carburetors or something and he's just going to forfeit; my investigative team is working on that. -Tom

Alls fair in love and war...and drag racing

[somedayaurora]

To be clear , if a drag racer was driving on slicks , he would eat the ferrari for lunch correct ?
SDR

[Don]

Tom......are you controlling the shift points or full automatic ?

" I've mentioned several things that I believe will get me .3 to .4 in improvement. No doubt, Dan can do better as get gets more comfortable. We'll see! "

[tommygold]

SDR - It's not at all clear to me that the Cobra would win if we were both on full drag slicks. I'd improve a lot too. My 60' time (1.91) was really no better than his (2.01). I'm crossing the 1/4 line at 11.22, despite the fact that my trap speed is 132.5; I should be in the 10s with that. If I can get better traction (particularly with launch control) I could be well down into the 10s. The drag slicks are almost less about speed for Dan and more about the fact that he has booked a race in tires in which he has a 50/50 shot (at least) of putting his car into the wall at 110 mph. For those of you coming to LV, I have one piece of advice -- stand far back during Dan's runs; consider Reno.

Don - I intend to run full auto. I found out that my car can run launch control with full auto. That one pretty much caused Dan to have a stroke. He insists that I run the car as it came from the factory, except for the things that the car does (launch control, ability to run race fuel) that he doesn't like.

[TerrysSPF]

Tom- I'm not sure you would improve all that much with slicks. Your cars launch control is already keeping the tires from spinning too much, where Dan doesn't have that luxury. The Cobra would improve FAR MORE with slicks than your car would, IMHO.

I still say Dan is screwed unless he gets to change his rear tires.

Dan- Why replace the clutch with the same one that just fried? Is that all Tom will allow? I'd replace it with a better / stronger one and launch in 2nd gear. A better clutch will be better for you and your car's lifespan anyway, regardless of the race.

[tommygold]

SPF - You may be right about Dan benefitting way more, but I don't think so. My car apparently can do 0-60mph in 2.8 seconds on slicks, versus 3.4 on street tires. He'd have to pick up an awful lot. I'm still getting a fair amount of wheel spin with launch control and street tires, albeit in the cold. In any event, it's an academic discussion -- Dan specifically asked for the .2 second bump to keep his tires, and I accepted; so it's settled.

And as to the clutch, yes -- we've said throughout that the equipment stays the same; no upgrades to the cars.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by tommygold

I do think there is at least a 25% chance that we'll find out that Blitz's shop did change his car by putting in better carburetors or something and he's just going to forfeit; my investigative team is working on that. -Tom

Assuming that Keith Craft built and dyno'ed Dan's engine, I would think the carbs that were originally installed are still there, though they were leaking. The numbers from the rear wheel dyno that Dan did recently (550 RWHP) appear to support the flywheel dyno numbers (apprx. 720 HP) that were done when "otomix" purchased the engine from KC.

So, my unsupported speculative opinion is that the carbs weren't changed and that any tuning done was to get the carbs to work like they did when they left KC's shop at the time the engine was originally built.

[tommygold]

RK - I'm sure you're right. To be clear: I haven't actually thought for a second that Dan would cheat; he (like me) couldn't possibly be more honest about this stuff. He has a complex that others are out to get him (which I really like to encourage, as you can see, because it's like poking a bear with a stick from 2000 miles away), but he's not out to get others (in this way). Neither of us places the value of the $ in this bet anywhere near the value of our character as people who do what we say we're going to. We just give each other a super-duper hard time.

[tommygold]

Is anyone able to descipher this graph of a 458's acceleration? Many thanks.

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...box60130-1.jpg

UPDATE: I think it's graphing how long it takes the Ferrari to go from 60-130 -- 7.74 seconds.

[Excaliber]

An upgrade to the clutch will not provide an improvement of ET or launch over the existing clutch when it was new.

The reason "we" (Cobra owners) upgrade our clutches when needed is to make them last longer. When they are new, a decent clutch vs a racing clutch doesn't offer any advantage. When they get a few thousand miles on them, THATS when you see the advantage. One still works, while the other starts going away.

As for drag slicks on the Blitz car, it would help drop the ET, but by no means would gaurentee a victory. I suspect Blitz is running road race hand grooved slicks, which is exactly what I run. They are really good, on the ROAD RACE track, they aint "all that" on a drag strip. They have a very hard sidewall and the traction improves dramatically when the tires are heated. A simple burn out will not be enough to bring them up to temp.

Blitz, get some tire heating jackets to keep the tires warm. DON'T drop the tire pressure to much, those tires perform well with adequate pressure and when hot.

[blitzforce]

Look I have been as fair as humanly possible with this bet, but the bottom line is we agreed and I have the texts to back it up that his car has to be "completely stock" and "bone stock like it comes off the showroom" are the exact texts. What Tommy doesn't realize is I didn't tune my car for racing, it wasn't even dynoed after they rebuilt the exact same carbs b/c they were leaking. I already explained to Tom that the "tuning" they did on my car is what all the computers in his fuel injected car do already. They did my alignment and balancing of my tires, they changed all fluids, and tightened up all nuts and bolts, replaced the engine dampner with the exact same one, and I have the reciept. They took 4 days just to do my alignment and have in no way shape or form been trying to go the extra mile for this race, a cat was ****ting in the parking lot the other day and I think that was of more interest than them working on my car. Bottom line is his altering the shift points in his computer is 1000% altering the car and it's current computer settings and might even void the warranty.

[TerrysSPF]

The terms of this bet are absolutlely killing Dan. I don't know what clutch was in the car originally (I'm sure it was decent), but a car with that kind of power needs as heavy duty of a clutch as he can get.

Can't change the clutch..............can't change the tires............can't go to the track to practice anymore.
Can he change his pants after he gets beat?

This is going to come down to the DRIVERS instead of the CARS, which is a shame, but I think that's what the bet was really about. Afterall, we're talking BIG egos here (no offense to Tom and Dan - I'd say MOST of us have pretty big egos here).

As witnessed earlier, all Tom has to do is point his car in a straight line and give it gas, and he's clicking off times that were equal to professional drivers at Road & track for cryin' out loud - and he doesn't even have to shift! Dan on the other hand, well, it takes a skilled, experienced driver to get the best out of a Cobra, and 12 sec 1/4 mile times out of THAT car with THAT engine shows me that Dan needs a lot more work.
IMHO, unless the Ferrari breaks, Tom may as well start spending the money now.
-I just hope both of you stay safe and keep the shiney side up.

[tommygold]

Originally Posted by blitzforce

Look I have been as fair as humanly possible with this bet, but the bottom line is we agreed and I have the texts to back it up that his car has to be "completely stock" and "bone stock like it comes off the showroom" are the exact texts. What Tommy doesn't realize is I didn't tune my car for racing, it wasn't even dynoed after they rebuilt the exact same carbs b/c they were leaking. I already explained to Tom that the "tuning" they did on my car is what all the computers in his fuel injected car do already. They did my alignment and balancing of my tires, they changed all fluids, and tightened up all nuts and bolts, replaced the engine dampner with the exact same one, and I have the reciept. They took 4 days just to do my alignment and have in no way shape or form been trying to go the extra mile for this race, a cat was ****ting in the parking lot the other day and I think that was of more interest than them working on my car. Bottom line is his altering the shift points in his computer is 1000% altering the car and it's current computer settings and might even void the warranty.

Seeing every one of these paranoid posts from Blitz brightens my day so, so much.

[RodKnock]

We've only talked about the cars so far.

I was going to suggest to Dan that he could lose 10-20 lbs between now and the race to lighten the load, so to speak, but maybe he should gain some weight for more traction.

Dan could always go "Tonya Harding" on Tom before the race. But don't go for the legs, go for the fingers.

[Hotfingrs]

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Is anyone able to descipher this graph of a 458's acceleration? Many thanks.

Basically what you're looking at is a 60mph to 130mph run. It took 7.740 seconds to hit 130 mph from 60 and also took 1129 ft to do it.

[tommygold]

HF - Thanks for your help on the graph. Does the straight linear nature of the curve tell us anything about the 458's power band? Like I said, I don't know anything about this stuff.

[Hotfingrs]

I wouldn't think that it does. If any car is capable of hitting 130 mph then the line should be straight, the only thing that would change would be the time and feet marks.

You can also look at the longitudinal acceleration and see that when you mash the loud pedal at 60mph you have .692g force and at 130 you still have .277g's which means that you're not about to run out of power anytime soon....

[Don]

......fyi. mentioned in an article, not Ferrari sponsored, bringing the 458 RPM to 3200 for the optimum launch. Coincides with the 80% availability of max torque at that RPM ?

" The generous torque available - 540 Nm at 6000 rpm, with over 80 per cent available from 3250 rpm – ensures rapid pick-up from all revs. The specific torque output of 120 Nm/l is another record."

Tom....what RPM are using for the initial start with launch control. ?

False story/rumor or ? Ferrari refers to the launch control as Power Start , labeled as PS

http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sp...ia-Engine.aspx