For CSX 2000 and 3000 Series Cobra Owners Eyes Only

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

I see cars like the 4000 series and others described as true replicas and Shelby using the term "component" to differentiate his, and to placate the DMV, but I can't find any reference to them being defined as "genuine".

IMO, using the word "real" and/or "genuine", in the Cobra world, with anything other than an original 60's vintage Cobra is a falsehood when answering "the question."

While everyone is entitled to their own opinions (and you know what they say about opinions) I prefer to base my position on the working definitions used and accepted by SAAC. You do accept SAAC as the leading authority on all things Cobra don't you and the World Registry the Bible...don't you? Or perhaps only the parts you like?

I can easily see why owners of original cars would ascribe to the notion "if it wasn't built by Shelby in the 60's then it's not real". No axe to grind there.

I refer to the Continuation series as genuine or real Cobras because thats what they are. They are Shelby's and they are Cobras recreated by the original creator. As noted by the Registry while they are not originals they are not "replicas" as that term is understood in popular parlance which is commonly understood now to mean "kit cars" which while looking like a Cobra on the surface are nothing like it in substance underneath. A true "replica" is built to exact if not near exact specs as the original of it's kind and according to the dictionary by the "artist" responsible for the original. CSX3002 is arguably a replica of CSX3001 and so on but that is semantics.

Going beyond the general discussion on the Continuation Series....
and getting to the specificss lets start with the cover of the Registry titled "World Registry of Cobras & GT40s." It isn't titled "and Kits and Replicas". And what do you know I don't see FFRs, ERAs, Contemporaries, Backdrafts and the like in the Registry. Did I miss something?

Now lets go to the working definitions which were created because some car owners like to describe cars 'acting in their own best interests". I'm sure owners of original series are immune from this phenomenon however.

CSX 4000 Cobras are described as "current production Cobras..."
Hmmm, good enough for me.

"Kit car and Replica" is also defined using the now commonly understood use of "replica".

Moving to "Production Figures" we also see production figures for "Component Cobras" (CSX4000 etc.) set forth on the same page as "leaf sprung Cobras" and "Coil Spring Cobras". I don't see any production figures listed for kit cars or "replicas". Again did I miss that?

I can understand why you don't like when I or others refer to the Continuation series are real Cobras. Thats obvious. Doesn't change the fact that they are and have clearly been recogized as Cobras by the leading authority and bible on the subject. Just so happens their postion coincides with 'my opinion' now and as stated years ago before the current Registry was issued. See I was right again.

So when someone asks if my Cobra is "real" I accurately and truthfully answer "yes sure is". I always add that it is a Continuation Series Shebly Cobra. Whether they know what that is is not my problem. If I have time and they ask I happily explain. When that happens it does not seem to phase their amazement with the car either. In fact they seem just as amazed it's a genuine Shelby Cobra.

[jhv48]

Maybe we should approach this question (is it real) from the perspective of the person doing the asking.

I believe that most of these questions (is it real?) come from individuals that have no idea how to differentiate between an original Cobra, continuation cobra, SPF, BDR, CSSX, BFD, LOL, etc. It's my belief that all they want to know is if the cobra they are looking at was built in the 60's. Unless you interpret the question differently than I do, the only truthful answer is NO! (unless it is, in fact, an ORIGINAL one). Anything else is just wishful thinking on your part.

If you want to try and pass off your continuation car, SPF, BDR, Kirkham, BFD, etc., as a real original (built in the 60's) cobra, then you obviously interpret the question differently than I do. Just because Shelby writes something, doesn't make it so. He was attempting to differentiate his kit cars from all the others out there. Thus justifying the price or exclusivity.

Unless it was built in the 60's, it isn't a real original (built in the 60's) cobra. Everything else is just a kit car! Even the originals were kit cars, So what? Get over it!

Just answer the question and drop the indignation.

[patrickt]

I have a better idea. Since there are clearly more replica owners than owners of originals, I say we just "take over." We have more combined people, more combined resources, and more combined money. With that, we can pretty much do what we damn well please. We just steamroll over the original guys, and with them out of the way, we just declare our cars to be whatever we want them to be. It's easier than you think.

[jhv48]

Or we could just say "yes, it's an original continuation of a kit car!"

That ought to flummox them.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

So when someone asks if my Cobra is "real" I accurately and truthfully answer "yes sure is". I always add that it is a Continuation Series Shebly Cobra. Whether they know what that is is not my problem. If I have time and they ask I happily explain. When that happens it does not seem to phase their amazement with the car either. In fact they seem just as amazed it's a genuine Shelby Cobra.

I am equally amazed that you continue to spew that lame explanation.

As stated so many times before, when a 'civilian' asks if it is 'real' or 'original'...we all know exactly what they mean.

Unless you own a CSX2000 or 3000 car, any answer other than "no..." is a self serving line of BS.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by computerworks

I am equally amazed that you continue to spew that lame explanation.

As stated so many times before, when a 'civilian' asks if it is 'real' or 'original'...we all know exactly what they mean.

Unless you own a CSX2000 or 3000 car, any answer other than "no..." is a self serving line of BS.

Ouch!!

The explanation is not lame, misleading nor is it spewed but given in response to the question.

Yes, I agree that most "civilians" are inquiring if it is an "original" by asking if its "real". But as we "non-civilans" know the facts on the ground have changed since 1968. Again, SAAC and the Registry acknowledges and discuss this in detail.

If the question posed to me is.. "is that an original?" I always answer honestly and say "no, it's not an original, its a Continuation series Shebly Cobra." There are a fair number of people today that already know what that is but some don't admittedly don't.

If the question is, "is it real" which is a different question based on the facts today as much as many hate to admit it, the answer I give "yes, it is a Continuation series Shelby Cobra". The word "continuation" does not in any way sound like the word "original", it's spelling is not similar and in fact it's commonly understood meaning defines something other than original. That is self evident.

Why does the ignorance of "civilians" require Continuation Cobra owners to change or modify their factual answers to conform to the ignorance of the person asking the question so as to perpetuate the belief of the "civilian" that the Continuation Cobra is not a real Cobra? It doesn't.

So,... if a person asks me the question "is your Cobra real?" It's your position that the only truthful answer must be prefeced by the word "No" then I guess according to you I am then free to say " it is a Continuation series Cobra"? That would make alot of original owners happy I'm sure since that answer is then easily misconstrued by the "civilian" as you call them that it is then a "kit car or replica" as that word is now commonly understood which it is not according to SAAC and the Registry. See discussion and definitions in the World Registry.

No, you see what you suggest Continuation Cobra owners should be constrained to in answering the "is it real" quesiton is "lame" and unfair. The more accurate answer is "yes it is a real Cobra. Its a Continuation series Cobra"... I could add in exchange of this Yes it is real, however it is not an original series Cobra but a continuation series Cobra." This answer if fair and accurate.

Yes, AC stamped the serial numbers on the original chasis. What does "CSX" stand for again???? LOL.

The COB and COX cars were allowed to be called Cobras under agreement/license with Shelby, but for that they would not be Cobras either unless designated so by SAAC which they were. Ask Brian Angliss.

I agree that the Registry defines these cars and explains what they are in order to avoid confusion with the original cars and with "non Cobras" to in order to help protect future buyers. There have aleady been cases were the unscrupulous have tried to counterfit Continuation Cobras and pawn them off as such.

Patrick: Violence is not always the answer. Learn to accept the facts and the truth. LOL.

[computerworks]

When you answer that way, you are misleading the listener.

It is sad that you feel compelled to explain your car with a footnote ...to people who have no idea what you are referring to.

As I said...self-serving.

Whatever makes you feel good, I guess.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Patrick: Violence is not always the answer. Learn to accept the facts and the truth. LOL.

Uhhh, since you did such a clear job of explaining that truth to me maybe you could tackle the bogomol'nyi bound for me now?

[itstock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ouch!!

The explanation is not lame, misleading nor is it spewed but given in response to the question.

Yes, I agree that most "civilians" are inquiring if it is an "original" by asking if its "real". But as we "non-civilans" know the facts on the ground have changed since 1968. Again, SAAC and the Registry acknowledges and discuss this in detail.

If the question posed to me is.. "is that an original?" I always answer honestly and say "no, it's not an original, its a Continuation series Shebly Cobra." There are a fair number of people today that already know what that is but some don't admittedly don't.

If the question is, "is it real" which is a different question based on the facts today as much as many hate to admit it, the answer I give "yes, it is a Continuation series Shelby Cobra". The word "continuation" does not in any way sound like the word "original", it's spelling is not similar and in fact it's commonly understood meaning defines something other than original. That is self evident.

Why does the ignorance of "civilians" require Continuation Cobra owners to change or modify their factual answers to conform to the ignorance of the person asking the question so as to perpetuate the belief of the "civilian" that the Continuation Cobra is not a real Cobra? It doesn't.

So,... if a person asks me the question "is your Cobra real?" It's your position that the only truthful answer must be prefeced by the word "No" then I guess according to you I am then free to say " it is a Continuation series Cobra"? That would make alot of original owners happy I'm sure since that answer is then easily misconstrued by the "civilian" as you call them that it is then a "kit car or replica" as that word is now commonly understood which it is not according to SAAC and the Registry. See discussion and definitions in the World Registry.

No, you see what you suggest Continuation Cobra owners should be constrained to in answering the "is it real" quesiton is "lame" and unfair. The more accurate answer is "yes it is a real Cobra. Its a Continuation series Cobra"... I could add in exchange of this Yes it is real, however it is not an original series Cobra but a continuation series Cobra." This answer if fair and accurate.

Yes, AC stamped the serial numbers on the original chasis. What does "CSX" stand for again???? LOL.

The COB and COX cars were allowed to be called Cobras under agreement/license with Shelby, but for that they would not be Cobras either unless designated so by SAAC which they were. Ask Brian Angliss.

I agree that the Registry defines these cars and explains what they are in order to avoid confusion with the original cars and with "non Cobras" to in order to help protect future buyers. There have aleady been cases were the unscrupulous have tried to counterfit Continuation Cobras and pawn them off as such.

Patrick: Violence is not always the answer. Learn to accept the facts and the truth. LOL.

Imagine if you had to explain the difference every day, to every single person that asks? No thanks.

I've never been asked if my car was "original", only if it were "real". I have never answered yes, always answered it is a replica. If I had a continuation series, I would have no problem answering "yes" to "is that real?" But like you, I understand the difference of real/original.

The challenging question is; "What kind of car is that"?

I answer that as a replica of a 1965 Shelby 427 Cobra. "A what"? A Shelby Cobra. "insert response/cool car/nice ride etc".

You continuation series guys have it easy.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

See discussion and definitions in the World Registry.

I hate myself for contributing to this thread, again, but the Registry calls the CSX4000's "true replicas."

Now some CSX4000's are "more true" than other CSX4000 replicas, so I'd put Evan's CSX4000 in the category of "truest replicas."

As Socrates said "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... so I'd put Evan's CSX4000 in the category of "truest replica."

I'd be willing to settle on that. After all, it's summertime and the livin' is supposed to be easy....

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ask Brian Angliss.

I'm never sure why Brian Angliss, who came into the AC Cars equation many years after the last 60's-built Cobra was built, should be relied upon as a primary source of information about cars constructed by others long prior to his involvement. He has reconstructed a number of early cars, and he did build the AC MK.IV's, but he had nothing to do with Shelby or AC Cars in the 60's.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I'm never sure why Brian Angliss, who came into the AC Cars equation many years after the last 60's-built Cobra was built, should be relied upon as a primary source of information about cars constructed by others long prior to his involvement. He has reconstructed a number of early cars, and he did build the AC MK.IV's, but he had nothing to do with Shelby or AC Cars in the 60's.

Let's ask him anyway, here's his telephone number: 1-800-WHO-CARES.

Patrick and I resolved it by using the new CSX4000 terminology: "True Replica."

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Patrick and I resolved it by using the new CSX4000 terminology: "True Replica."

Yep, and the fact that Evan is still researching the bogomol'nyi bound. Good luck on that.

[CSX3183]

I agree of course with the definition as described by SAAC.

As for replicas, they ( the rest) are NOT replicas, they are KIT cars, just as the magazine, (if it's still published) is called, KIT CARS or something to that effect.

[mrmustang]

Ladies and gentleman of the jury, I present the following statement as evidence that Evan H. has presented in writing on 05-10-2013 at 08:02 AM (reference post #41) that his CSX4000 series is indeed a "replica" of an original Cobra.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

If it doesn't rain this weekend you can bet I will be driving my genuine Cobra thats an exact replica of the original series LOL

Bill S.

[REAL 1]

Well since I am the only one here that participates in more than one forum at least you have reference to what I said on the Ford GT forum which is completely consistent to what I have said here in the past, now and what SAAC is saying in there World Registry. At least the Ford GT forum guys "got it". Sad, that in a site dedicated to "Cobras" many are still lost in the wilderness.

Also, please note, I did not start this thread or the first to participate. Please note I did not start the tread on the Ford GT Forum. Thank you.

Bill S.: You want to use a statement in a court of law it's best to make sure you use it in context since your adversary will be given a wide berth in demonstrating you took it out of context if that what you did....and thats what you did. Not cricket. All I will say is that for those interested enough you need to read my other posts even post #41 that you conveniently failed to include the rest of ...but I would also point to my post #27 and #29. "Two Shelbys" hit the nail on the head in his post #16. Not hard stuff guys. Really.

Yes, according to the formal definition one could argue that every Cobra after first production 2000 and 3000 Cobra is a replica of the the "original" and yes technically the continuation cars and the completion cars are all "technically" replicas of the original Cobras produced by Shelby.

Again, I can read the World Registry for you nor obviously can I help any of you out of the fog as to what the World Registry has said and what I have been saying. All I can do when the subject comes up is continue to try to point to the light for the poor souls who continue to be lost.

CSX3183 gets it.

Patrickt: I am truly sorry. Alas I have failed you. Lets simplify. Get your World Registry turn to page 30. Read slowly and (out loud if it helps). PM me any questions you continue to have so as to avoid embarrassment of asking them in public. Will scan and email answers with pictures in Crayon to help move this along)

Istock: No it's really not difficult. If asked if my Cobra is an original my answer is "No, it's a Continuation series Shelby Cobra". If they want to talk more and I have time I happily talk more. Some know what a continuation series Cobra is some don't.

If asked it is "real" my answer is emphatically "yes" with the balance the same as above.

I am not going to devalue or debase my Cobra in my answer to the above questions to give the impression that my Continuation Series Cobra is not a real Cobra when it is and accepted and acknowledged by SAAC.

To make it simple...we "non-civilians" know what the technical meaning of "replica" is.

Civilians use and equate and commonly understand "replica" to mean a fake.

As such I make sure when answering the question to the "civilian" he clearly understands he is not looking a fake but a real Cobra from Shelby. I know some owners of originals don't like this but the facts on the ground have changed boys.

Easy peezy. Next...

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by computerworks

I am equally amazed that you continue to spew that lame explanation.

As stated so many times before, when a 'civilian' asks if it is 'real' or 'original'...we all know exactly what they mean.

Unless you own a CSX2000 or 3000 car, any answer other than "no..." is a self serving line of BS.

This is so confusing. We have lawyers, the cobra registrar, at least one cobra book author, long time saac members all discussing what's real again. The registry has all of those pages to read, which will take forever. Maybe I should just ask my magic 8 ball? Or better yet, I'll ask my tea cup...

[1ntCobra]

Oh NO! Not only did Shelby Automobiles use the slogan "Own the Real Thing" on tea cups, but now I find out Shelby American's telephone and fax numbers are "REAL" and "COBRA":

SHELBY AMERICAN, INC.
6755 Speedway Blvd.
Las Vegas, NV 89115
Tel: 702.942.REAL (7325)
Fax: 702.93.COBRA (26272)

What are the civilians going to think "real" means when Shelby is using the word to sell new Cobras?

At least Evan tries to unconfuse the civilians of their apparent misuse of the question, "Is it real?"

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

This is so confusing. We have lawyers, the cobra registrar, at least one cobra book author, long time saac members all discussing what's real again. The registry has all of those pages to read, which will take forever. Maybe I should just ask my magic 8 ball? Or better yet, I'll ask my tea cup...

[jhv48]

No one disputes the fact that they are REAL.

But everyone disputes the fact that they are ORIGINAL.

The public only wants to know if they are ORIGINAL, even though they ask "is it real?"

Why is this so confusing to you guys?

Continuation cars are REAL Shelby Cobras, but not ORIGINAL Shelby Cobras. Tell the public what it wants to know. "No my car is not an ORIGINAL Shelby cobra, but it is a REAL Shelby cobra!" Then try and explain what you mean while they stare at you. Or you could just tell them the truth, "NO!" and be done with it!