Here's An Interesting CSX4000 (or is it)?

[Al G]

It sure would be nice if someone from Shelby or Kirkham came on one of these threads and told us exactly what Kirkham delivers to Shelby and how the rollers each of them finish differ. Maybe that would finally put to rest the mistaken claims that the cars are the same.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Al G

It sure would be nice if someone from Shelby or Kirkham came on one of these threads and told us exactly what Kirkham delivers to Shelby and how the rollers each of them finish differ. Maybe that would finally put to rest the mistaken claims that the cars are the same.

This has been discussed before on several threads. The correct answer is that Kirkham supplies the aluminum body and tube frame only. The frame has the motor mounts further back than an original car. All of the suspension, inner body panels, wire harness, brakes, carpets, etc. are installed in Vegas by Shelby.

[REAL 1]

Fordracing65: Ok, your crazy. The Shelby pedigree always brought a premium. There are likely some that think you are crazy for not stepping up to the Shelby if you had the money. You think I'm crazy. I think your crazy.

No question part of the reason to catalog all these cars is to help prevent fraud and fakes from being sold especially with regard to the original cars but the odds of that have reduced over the years with the information available.

However, the Registry as a separate and distinct section on definitions found at page 30 which clearly and succinctly define what cars qualify as Cobras, original Cobras, current production Cobras and what the definition of Kit Car or Replica is.

These definintions were set forth by those more knowledgable than me and likely you on these cars and to set the standards as the Registry points out most owners tend to act in their own self interest in their definitions of what they own.

Look, I don't own a Kirkham so I really don't give a rat's patuty if you want to continue to denigrate your own cars. Have at it. However, the Registry acknowledges your cars as Cobras. There are AC Cobras and Kirkham Cobras. You want to continue to refer to your Kirkhams as "replicas" or kit cars be my guest.

1ntCobra: What is your source that Kirkhams have motor mounts farther back then the originals. I have never read that anywhere nor in any Kirkham literature . The nip points are different than the originals and the welding is Tig instead of arc to differentiate them.

It is correct SAI does mount their own suspension that is different than Kirkhams and as original except stronger chrome molly, at least as of 14 years ago when my car was assemble by SAI.

[Jamo]

Geez.........

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Fordracing65: Ok, your crazy. The Shelby pedigree always brought a premium. There are likely some that think you are crazy for not stepping up to the Shelby if you had the money. You think I'm crazy. I think your crazy.

No question part of the reason to catalog all these cars is to help prevent fraud and fakes from being sold especially with regard to the original cars but the odds of that have reduced over the years with the information available.

However, the Registry as a separate and distinct section on definitions found at page 30 which clearly and succinctly define what cars qualify as Cobras, original Cobras, current production Cobras and what the definition of Kit Car or Replica is.

These definintions were set forth by those more knowledgable than me and likely you on these cars and to set the standards as the Registry points out most owners tend to act in their own self interest in their definitions of what they own.

Look, I don't own a Kirkham so I really don't give a rat's patuty if you want to continue to denigrate your own cars. Have at it. However, the Registry acknowledges your cars as Cobras. There are AC Cobras and Kirkham Cobras. You want to continue to refer to your Kirkhams as "replicas" or kit cars be my guest.

1ntCobra: What is your source that Kirkhams have motor mounts farther back then the originals. I have never read that anywhere nor in any Kirkham literature . The nip points are different than the originals and the welding is Tig instead of arc to differentiate them.

It is correct SAI does mount their own suspension that is different than Kirkhams and as original except stronger chrome molly, at least as of 14 years ago when my car was assemble by SAI.

I bet my KIT car could beat your KIT car...

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Fordracing65: Ok, your crazy. The Shelby pedigree always brought a premium. There are likely some that think you are crazy for not stepping up to the Shelby if you had the money. You think I'm crazy. I think your crazy.

No question part of the reason to catalog all these cars is to help prevent fraud and fakes from being sold especially with regard to the original cars but the odds of that have reduced over the years with the information available.

However, the Registry as a separate and distinct section on definitions found at page 30 which clearly and succinctly define what cars qualify as Cobras, original Cobras, current production Cobras and what the definition of Kit Car or Replica is.

These definintions were set forth by those more knowledgable than me and likely you on these cars and to set the standards as the Registry points out most owners tend to act in their own self interest in their definitions of what they own.

Look, I don't own a Kirkham so I really don't give a rat's patuty if you want to continue to denigrate your own cars. Have at it. However, the Registry acknowledges your cars as Cobras. There are AC Cobras and Kirkham Cobras. You want to continue to refer to your Kirkhams as "replicas" or kit cars be my guest.

1ntCobra: What is your source that Kirkhams have motor mounts farther back then the originals. I have never read that anywhere nor in any Kirkham literature . The nip points are different than the originals and the welding is Tig instead of arc to differentiate them.

It is correct SAI does mount their own suspension that is different than Kirkhams and as original except stronger chrome molly, at least as of 14 years ago when my car was assemble by SAI.

Kirkham puts the motor mounts in the correct location per original frames, except when they supply frames to Shelby. For some reason Shelby prefers the motor mounts on csx4000 frames in a non-original place (maybe better weight balance). This has been discussed before on this forum. If you don't believe me, ask David Kirkham, he will verify.

You consider Kirkham to be the modern equivalent of AC, you should consider going to the Kirkham open house some February to check them out and talk to the Kirkham brothers.

[REAL 1]

Jamo: Yeah I know, I know. Wacky ain't it??
I should get paid for this "job".

Fordracing65: Yeah your replica would win since I don't have a "replica" of a Cobra to race. I own a Cobra. It says right here in the Registry and on my MSO. I have no doubt in the universe that if the Registry defined the continuation cars as "replicas" or "kits" the peanut gallery here would continue to run that fact up the flag pole and force me to eat crow and consider the issue closed and decided. However, since the Registry definitions defining what is and are not Cobras is inconsistent with your own personal views you nevertheless persist in your own PERSONAL views. Continue to knock yourselves out. I'll just simply refer to the Registry definitions in retort.

Now if you want to run your Kirkham Cobra against a Shelby Cobra I concede you would likely win. I'm not much of a driver and seems like you have more Cubes under the hood and likely the same gearing if it's 3:54 to 1.

1ntCobra: Not that I don't believe or believe just wanted the source. When did this change begin and whats the link here? Love to read it. The Registry makes no mention of any such modification which would be a fairly significant detail to leave out. Other details of difference are mentioned such as difference in nip point, welding method, serial number change. In fact the Registry makes specific note that the chassis are per original spec on the Kirkhams and Shelbys and notes the fiberglass cars to have bird cage pieces bolted instead of welded as opposed to welded on the aluminum cars.

I have spoken to the kirkhams on a number of occasions. I even helped them out at the NY Auto Show one year with their display after 9/11. I even have a Kirkham polo and much of their original sales brochures. I am also proud to say that they built the body and chassis on my Cobra. Kinda cool that it had it's genesis in a former factory and artisians that produced Russian MIGs.Thats something the original cars can't boast.

[CHANMADD]

The way that people talk about their "kit" cars on here , referencing the chassis no for a , Backdraft, or Superformance, or some other not so popular make, ...........I can see an eventual registry for all these "Kits"...............Let's face it , all of these cars are going up in value,and its in all of our collective ownership interest to make sure that continues to happen............To the average Joe , these cars will remain a dream.....real, replica, kit, .........

[OnyxRider]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Jamo: Yeah I know, I know. Wacky ain't it??
I should get paid for this "job".

Fordracing65: Yeah your replica would win since I don't have a "replica" of a Cobra to race. I own a Cobra.

OK I have a burning question to which I will start a thread on, however I'm probably a minority of one here on the following. I have always been interested in original automobiles and I use original as a generic term guys. Yes I know there are copies, replicas, kits(you pick the term) for a number of original autos. As far as a Cobra there is 260, 289, 427 Cobras, that's my viewpoint. I know probably a little about ERA and stallions then any other "copy". Now I actually have been learning about kirkham and Continuation(which I knew about) from this site and also getting some entertainment.

When I read a member's comment that I learn from or catches my eye I read the corner to see if they have an auto listed. Some of them I can not figure out to tell you the truth. Now with the above poster(not poser lol) when he states he has a Cobra then FOR ME it automatically means an original 1960's Cobra. I think the whole system stinks. I'm not blaming anyone but it stinks.

Please from now on everyone call it what it is Continuation Cobra, kirkham ERA...for this broken down old sailor I get confused so easily. And it's not fair if I have to write original Cobra all the time for the others.


Thank You

[LMH]

The only thing you really need to know is if it didn't originally come from A.C. in the 60's, it's a replica of those that did.
Larry

[ICBomber90]

Originally Posted by LMH

The only thing you really need to know is if it didn't originally come from A.C. in the 60's, it's a replica of those that did.
Larry

Thank you...

[REAL 1]

Eureka!!!

Onyxrider: You are correct. I agree 100% and in fact this would be consistent with the deifinitions in the Registiry. This will allow us to all be clear and fair, consistent and correct on what we are calling these cars.

As to an original Cobra they will henceforth be referred to as an original Cobra.
Continuation Series Cobra you refer to them as a Continuation Cobra. a Kirkham Cobra. Thats what you refer to it as.
AC. Its an AC Cobra.
Anything else you refer to it as ERA Cobra replica, SFf Cobra replica etc...

I'm game for this. Anyone else agree with Onyxrider and me?

Problem solved.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

The only thing you really need to know is if it didn't originally come from A.C. in the 60's, it's a replica of those that did.
Larry

Yes. I agree. As to the current crop of Cobras this is "technically" correct as to the Shelbys.

[LMH]

You mean Shelby's are to continuation replicas as Shelby was to A.C. back in the day?
I can kind of sort of see that. I know what you mean though.
Larry

[csx4017]

Unless you watched your CSX4000/6000 series Cobra being assembled in LV I suggest the Vegas myth should not be perpetuated. For some reason Shelby's assembly plant in the lovely city of Tijuana is always omitted from these posts. The second assembly location, in South Africa, is most important to recognize if you are considering a CSX or Superformance. I would find it very informative to know the production numbers for all locations.........Hi Tech ?? HST ?? LV?? Is any of that in the Registry ??

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by csx4017

Unless you watched your CSX4000/6000 series Cobra being assembled in LV I suggest the Vegas myth should not be perpetuated. For some reason Shelby's assembly plant in the lovely city of Tijuana is always omitted from these posts. The second assembly location, in South Africa, is most important to recognize if you are considering a CSX or Superformance. I would find it very informative to know the production numbers for all locations.........Hi Tech ?? HST ?? LV?? Is any of that in the Registry ??

Kris Kincaid, formerly with Shelby, built my car in Vegas at Shelby. So as far as a "Vegas myth" goes, don't know what to say. But that was "back in the day" and they have out-sourced since then.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by csx4017

Unless you watched your CSX4000/6000 series Cobra being assembled in LV I suggest the Vegas myth should not be perpetuated. For some reason Shelby's assembly plant in the lovely city of Tijuana is always omitted from these posts. The second assembly location, in South Africa, is most important to recognize if you are considering a CSX or Superformance. I would find it very informative to know the production numbers for all locations.........Hi Tech ?? HST ?? LV?? Is any of that in the Registry ??

Aluminum Csx4000 cars are still built in Vegas on body/frames sourced from Kirkham. The Mexican plant has been closed for a while.

[csx4017]

CSX4250, I am talking about todays' reference of LV being the primary place for assembly. I have several friends that had theirs built/ modified in Vegas.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by csx4017

CSX4250, I am talking about todays' reference of LV being the primary place for assembly. I have several friends that had theirs built/ modified in Vegas.

4017, got it and you are correct about today's reference. You can't go to LV and watch them build your car anymore that I know of anyways.

[csx4017]

The HST plant tooling went to SA as I hear it. You reference 4000 series that have been superseded by 6000. Are they building 9000 Aluminum Daytona Coupes in LV ?? The facts are at Shelby America, not from bits and pieces I or any of us have heard. We have all read what people think they know. I can tell you with factual documents that CSX4017 was built in TJ and she has several other CSX numbers written on the lower footbox and tub. Indicating to me that these components were not installed as originally intended.