Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

David, do you have any pics of the car you could share...

I was looking for them today and couldn't find them. I'll look around.

David

[REAL 1]

Very nice project. However I have issues and concerns. There are pros and cons.

Pros:
1. CSX3000 vin # from SAI
2. A lot of original NOS equipment and details that's hard to find today.
3. Original power from a real 1965 NASCAR 427SO.
4. Limited number.

Cons:
1. Not able to drive on the street. Closed course only as I understand. Also I would never drive this car on a closed course for multiple reasons.
2. Not a 1965 Chassis. Merely a continuation chassis stamped with a CSX3000 vin. The original "Completion" series cars were supposed to be the original unused 1965 chassis used to complete the homologation run of the original comp cars to 100 in number. It was established such chassis do not exist and CS got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. These are not true "completion cars" anyway you slice it. Putting original NOS parts on them and an original NASCAR 427SO does not change that.
3. These cars are really Continuation Chassis Shelby's completed to a very high level of original detail. What you are paying for is the hard to find NOS parts and the CSX3000 vin on a new chassis.
4. Very high buy in price. My bet will be at least $250,000.00 for the chassis with the CSX3000 stamping and another $100,000.00 to finish with original 427SO and NOS parts. This for a car you can't drive? Its a high priced statute.

Would I pay a lot of extra money for a CSX3000 vin on an original chassis? You bet. Would I pay a lot of extra money for a CSX3000 vin stamped on my chassis? No.

Finishing a Shelby Continuation series to near original specs is expensive and time consuming. Very true. Mine is finished to such a very high level of detail and has the bulk of what's on the list for the CSX3000 series so I know. But there are more details than what's on that list which I have and are not on the list.

That's my take.

[Bernica]

I guess I'm a little confused as to why you couldn't get the car registered for street use. I understand that as a turn-key, at least here in CA you wouldn't be able to. But wouldn't there be a way around that by having the car completed as a roller, then buying and having the engine installed separately?

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I guess I'm a little confused as to why you couldn't get the car registered for street use. I understand that as a turn-key, at least here in CA you wouldn't be able to. But wouldn't there be a way around that by having the car completed as a roller, then buying and having the engine installed separately?

I don't know anything about this. Maybe someone else can chime in here.

David

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I guess I'm a little confused as to why you couldn't get the car registered for street use. I understand that as a turn-key, at least here in CA you wouldn't be able to. But wouldn't there be a way around that by having the car completed as a roller, then buying and having the engine installed separately?

The car will probably come with a Bill of Sale, like most race cars do but not an MSO. Different states will do it differently but in AZ without the MSO, it would be registered as a 2015. It would have to pass 2015 emissions standards and all that BS that goes along with it. Not sure that engine could pass those standards.
Larry

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by LMH

The car will probably come with a Bill of Sale, like most race cars do but not an MSO. Different states will do it differently but in AZ without the MSO, it would be registered as a 2015. It would have to pass 2015 emissions standards and all that BS that goes along with it. Not sure that engine could pass those standards.
Larry

The press release says that the car comes with an MSO signed by CS himself.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by Bernica

The press release says that the car comes with an MSO signed by CS himself.

Autopen, that's Shelbys signature...

[REAL 1]

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

I can't think of any company better to be involved with this project than Kirkham. They are the modern "AC" based on their relationship with SAI and involvement with restorations. Their work is breathtaking and masterful and in my view their cars deserve to be recognized as second generation genuine Cobras. SAAC agrees. Refer to the Registry. Another builder restorer would be McClusky obviously. HRE Motorcars in Freeport LI is also gaining a great reputation as a respected restorer of originals and builder of Continuation series Cobras and GT40s.

It is clear the Kirkham chassis used in their Cobras and supplied to Shelby are the same as the McClusky chassis for the "completion series" as one was reversed engineered from the other and the other reversed engineered from an original. Clones.

Very simply if the MSO for this new Completion series have original signatures then they had to be signed prior to CS's death. When? Who knows. Self evident. If they are duplicate signatures then auto pen. Obviously.

My concern for this "Completion Cobra" project is that they are really misnamed. They are not true completion or resumption cars or whatever synonym you want to use. Putting aside all the great NOS parts, if it does not have an original chassis but carries an original CSX 3000 vin # it is really an "Air Car" as defined by SAAC. None of these new Completion cars was an original car nor did any parts used for them come from an original car. They are new cars using NOS parts never before used on a prior car.

While my Shelby is finished to a very high level of detail which includes the correct seat tracks and knobs, all correct tags and markings, mirrors, correct seat belts, correct carpet, Rebatt style batteries etc...etc...I don't really know if it has the original grommets for the lines, clips, original tie rods and boots, shifter rings etc....and the other nitty gritty details. I do know that what is there is dimensionally correct. Original NOS stuff would all be neat little details to put in during the build if you were even aware enough to do it.

Another concern is if I am buying one of these cars what proof do I have that the nitty gritty parts like a shifter boot for instance or a tie rod is an original NOS part. New reproduction tie rods, new shifter boots, new shifter rings look identical to the old. How do I know that the clips used, grommets are all original NOS parts? Who represents this? Is it in writing? Is their a list as to what is NOS original and what is not that is given to me? If I need a replacement can I get it? Where and from whom? I know I am paying a lot of extra money for this stuff so who is representing I am getting what I am paying for and where is the list of what is original NOS?

There is no doubt that getting these cars aesthetically correct/historically correct is laborious, difficult, time consuming and expensive. This accounts for the difference in price between some Continuation Cobras and other Continuation Cobras. They are not all equal by any means. If historical/aesthetic accuracy is important to you you will have to pay for it. Some scoffed when I indicated that I have a current detailed build sheet from HRE to reproduce CSX 4206 with its original NASCAR 427 SO and all the details would be in excess of $240,000.00.

I do know that the early CSX continuation cars had a lot of details the current ones don't have and a lot of NOS parts Shelby had were used in early cars but stopped in later production. Early CSX Shlebys had things such as Girling brakes, correct suspension, Smith Gauges, Girling reservoirs (I don't know if they are original or repro), even the dimples on the headlight rings, diff coolers, etc....

These new "Completion" cars undoubtedly will be beautiful and extremely detailed and as it was when the originals were new which is amazing, however, I would never spend that kind of money for a car I couldn't even drive. Why it cannot be driven on the street I do not really understand unless the car is being sold as a complete car and therefore must meet DOT regs and clearly can never do so and therefore cannot be driven.

If I were doing one I would insist the car be completed at a dealer so it could be registered for street use.

If owners of original cars have contempt for Continuation Series cars I can only imagine the bile and up roar from them if SAI starts spitting out "new" CSX 3000 series Cobras and referring to them as "Completion Cars" of the "original series" which they clearly are not regardless of how many NOS original parts you stuff into them. If it ain't got an original chassis it cannot be a "completion" Cobra....of course unless SAI is now re-writing the definition of a "Completion" Cobra which I guess they are. However, not even they can change the facts regardless of their self serving re-write.

I would refer to these cars as what they are, Continuation Cobras and give them a special designation suffix. This way it is not purporting to be anything it is not just like the other Shelby Continuation Cobras.

My 2 cents.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

I can't think of any company better to be involved with this project than Kirkham. They are the modern "AC" based on their relationship with SAI and involvement with restorations. Their work is breathtaking and masterful and in my view their cars deserve to be recognized as second generation genuine Cobras. SAAC agrees. Refer to the Registry. Another builder restorer would be McClusky obviously. HRE Motorcars in Freeport LI is also gaining a great reputation as a respected restorer of originals and builder of Continuation series Cobras and GT40s.

It is clear the Kirkham chassis used in their Cobras and supplied to Shelby are the same as the McClusky chassis for the "completion series" as one was reversed engineered from the other and the other reversed engineered from an original. Clones.

Very simply if the MSO for this new Completion series have original signatures then they had to be signed prior to CS's death. When? Who knows. Self evident. If they are duplicate signatures then auto pen. Obviously.

My concern for this "Completion Cobra" project is that they are really misnamed. They are not true completion or resumption cars or whatever synonym you want to use. Putting aside all the great NOS parts, if it does not have an original chassis but carries an original CSX 3000 vin # it is really an "Air Car" as defined by SAAC. None of these new Completion cars was an original car nor did any parts used for them come from an original car. They are new cars using NOS parts never before used on a prior car.

While my Shelby is finished to a very high level of detail which includes the correct seat tracks and knobs, all correct tags and markings, mirrors, correct seat belts, correct carpet, Rebatt style batteries etc...etc...I don't really know if it has the original grommets for the lines, clips, original tie rods and boots, shifter rings etc....and the other nitty gritty details. I do know that what is there is dimensionally correct. Original NOS stuff would all be neat little details to put in during the build if you were even aware enough to do it.

Another concern is if I am buying one of these cars what proof do I have that the nitty gritty parts like a shifter boot for instance or a tie rod is an original NOS part. New reproduction tie rods, new shifter boots, new shifter rings look identical to the old. How do I know that the clips used, grommets are all original NOS parts? Who represents this? Is it in writing? Is their a list as to what is NOS original and what is not that is given to me? If I need a replacement can I get it? Where and from whom? I know I am paying a lot of extra money for this stuff so who is representing I am getting what I am paying for and where is the list of what is original NOS?

There is no doubt that getting these cars aesthetically correct/historically correct is laborious, difficult, time consuming and expensive. This accounts for the difference in price between some Continuation Cobras and other Continuation Cobras. They are not all equal by any means. If historical/aesthetic accuracy is important to you you will have to pay for it. Some scoffed when I indicated that I have a current detailed build sheet from HRE to reproduce CSX 4206 with its original NASCAR 427 SO and all the details would be in excess of $240,000.00.

I do know that the early CSX continuation cars had a lot of details the current ones don't have and a lot of NOS parts Shelby had were used in early cars but stopped in later production. Early CSX Shlebys had things such as Girling brakes, correct suspension, Smith Gauges, Girling reservoirs (I don't know if they are original or repro), even the dimples on the headlight rings, diff coolers, etc....

These new "Completion" cars undoubtedly will be beautiful and extremely detailed and as it was when the originals were new which is amazing, however, I would never spend that kind of money for a car I couldn't even drive. Why it cannot be driven on the street I do not really understand unless the car is being sold as a complete car and therefore must meet DOT regs and clearly can never do so and therefore cannot be driven.

If I were doing one I would insist the car be completed at a dealer so it could be registered for street use.

If owners of original cars have contempt for Continuation Series cars I can only imagine the bile and up roar from them if SAI starts spitting out "new" CSX 3000 series Cobras and referring to them as "Completion Cars" of the "original series" which they clearly are not regardless of how many NOS original parts you stuff into them. If it ain't got an original chassis it cannot be a "completion" Cobra....of course unless SAI is now re-writing the definition of a "Completion" Cobra which I guess they are. However, not even they can change the facts regardless of their self serving re-write.

I would refer to these cars as what they are, Continuation Cobras and give them a special designation suffix. This way it is not purporting to be anything it is not just like the other Shelby Continuation Cobras.

My 2 cents.

This post looks like it was written by a lawyer

In all seriousness, these are very important questions. Frankly, I don't know which original parts will make it on the cars and which ones won't. I imagine Bill and Joe will work that out with the buyer. Some original parts (like original rubber gas lines) are pretty crummy and I wouldn't use them.

David

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

That may be true of "independent dealers" - that is how the current Cobras, and all of the other replicas, e.g., 32 Ford from Backdraft and the new Corvette from Superformance can be sold as year they replicate. However, as far as I know all of the majors that had in-house installation regardless of where they are, have essentially abandoned it due to the new CA regs.

The difference is Shelby has the status of "manufacturer", and manufacturers can't do that even if they weren't in CA.

[Phill Pollard]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I guess I'm a little confused as to why you couldn't get the car registered for street use. I understand that as a turn-key, at least here in CA you wouldn't be able to. But wouldn't there be a way around that by having the car completed as a roller, then buying and having the engine installed separately?

Trying to convert a Off-Road (race) car to the street would be impossible. Remember, this isn't a "Replica", "Kit Car", or roller. It's a complete vehicle.

The vehicle would have to meet CURRENT emission and safety standards.

These cars will NOT be 1965 cars, they will be 2015 cars, or whatever year they are COMPLETED in. Key Word: COMPLETED (in).

Carroll Shelby tried this before and if I remember right, was successful with completing/selling only a couple of them until the law stepped in and clarified the Year Model of them and he had to stop.

Safety standards alone would all but kill the car. Bumper height, headlight height, 5 mph bumpers, door bars, SRS/airbags, etc. etc. etc.

Then emission standards would finish the car off.


Phill Pollard

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by Phill Pollard

Trying to convert a Off-Road (race) car to the street would be impossible. Remember, this isn't a "Replica", "Kit Car", or roller. It's a complete vehicle.

The vehicle would have to meet CURRENT emission and safety standards.

These cars will NOT be 1965 cars, they will be 2015 cars, or whatever year they are COMPLETED in. Key Word: COMPLETED (in).

Carroll Shelby tried this before and if I remember right, was successful with completing/selling only a couple of them until the law stepped in and clarified the Year Model of them and he had to stop.

Safety standards alone would all but kill the car. Bumper height, headlight height, 5 mph bumpers, door bars, SRS/airbags, etc. etc. etc.

Then emission standards would finish the car off.


Phill Pollard

So then how do I buy a Superformance, Kirkham or whatever today as a roller and have it registered? People do it all the time.
In CA, we have the SB100 exclusion from all those pesky regulations.
I must be missing something. I get it if you have to buy the car turn-key which would kill the registration (at least in CA) but why not as a roller?

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Bernica

So then how do I buy a Superformance, Kirkham or whatever today as a roller and have it registered? People do it all the time.
In CA, we have the SB100 exclusion from all those pesky regulations.
I must be missing something. I get it if you have to buy the car turn-key which would kill the registration (at least in CA) but why not as a roller?

You can buy a SPF or other as a roller without power train. Installing the power train by the manufacturer makes it a completed vehicle and would have to meet year of manufacture safety requirements. There is nothing new here... I said it, Phil said it, and I'm saying it again. I would have anticipated that this is understood by almost everyone here.

Shelby is choosing to NOT make these cars rollers to preserve the attribute of the originals as anyone can put any engine in they wish in a roller. These new cars will be in some cases closer to the originals than many of the originals are today. We'll see what in the MSO makes it impossible to register them for street use.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I would have anticipated that this is understood by almost everyone here.

Shelby is choosing to NOT make these cars rollers to preserve the attribute of the originals as anyone can put any engine in they wish in a roller. These new cars will be in some cases closer to the originals than many of the originals are today. We'll see what in the MSO makes it impossible to register them for street use.

That's all I was asking and yes, I do understand.
I only asked because I wanted to be sure that SAI wouldn't start selling them as rollers, which would certainly pollute their provenance.

[Phill Pollard]

Originally Posted by Bernica

So then how do I buy a Superformance, Kirkham or whatever today as a roller and have it registered? People do it all the time.
In CA, we have the SB100 exclusion from all those pesky regulations.
I must be missing something. I get it if you have to buy the car turn-key which would kill the registration (at least in CA) but why not as a roller?

You answered your own question;

Because it is a ROLLER. A chassis and body with suspension and no "Power Train". Hence, a "Kit Car". It would have to be completed by the buyer, not the manufacture of the roller chassis.

The law allows an individual to build a certain number of "Kit Cars" per year. I believe CA allows you 3 (IIRC, it could be 1 <?shrug?>).

If Shelby completes the car it is a VEHICLE, not a ROLLER. It would need to meet all emission and safety standards for the year it was produced (i.e. COMPLETED).

Apples and Oranges...


Phill

[REAL 1]

As David said DeBeneste is a very savvy business man. If this were about history they would build one of these cars 100% correct in every nut and bolt as they were brand new as delivered by Shelby from the LA Airport and put it in the museum for the preservation of history.

Are all the proceeds of these "completion" cars going to the construction of the museum and acquisition of whatever they are acquiring for it???? Don't know. Are any part of the funds going to "profits" into "pockets"? Don't know.

The point is these cars are not true completion cars and should not have CSX3000 vin#. Period. They are not CSX3000 cars. Period. Regardless of how beautiful or breathtaking they may be. A well turned out Continuation Cobra with all the right major bits to the eye is just as breathtaking to the observer.

Are the buyers of these completion cars going to hoard them and keep them to themselves or share them with others to see? If they are keep in private collections no one will ever see how is that furthering the preservation of history? History has to be remembered to be preserved.

As to the "originals" being the true preservationists of history, that is not 100%true. History to be preserved must be remembered first. The replica industry and the replicas of today help preserved and preserve history by keeping a car over 50 years old in the public conscience and minds. A run of the mill 1972 Toyota perfectly preserved is part of "history" too but who cares? That and many other cars have faded from "history" so to speak.

The second generation Shelbys are part of Shelby history now. Their importance in the future is still undetermined.

History is made every day its just that some of it turns out to be more important to people than others.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Very nice project. However I have issues and concerns. There are pros and cons.

Pros:
1. CSX3000 vin # from SAI
2. A lot of original NOS equipment and details that's hard to find today.
3. Original power from a real 1965 NASCAR 427SO.
4. Limited number.

Cons:
1. Not able to drive on the street. Closed course only as I understand. Also I would never drive this car on a closed course for multiple reasons.
2. Not a 1965 Chassis. Merely a continuation chassis stamped with a CSX3000 vin. The original "Completion" series cars were supposed to be the original unused 1965 chassis used to complete the homologation run of the original comp cars to 100 in number. It was established such chassis do not exist and CS got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. These are not true "completion cars" anyway you slice it. Putting original NOS parts on them and an original NASCAR 427SO does not change that.

I don't think original cars had NASCAR 427's in them. I may be wrong here as just about anything is possible with the originals. The NASCAR crank is a BEAST. The Navy could use them for battleship anchors.

3. These cars are really Continuation Chassis Shelby's completed to a very high level of original detail. What you are paying for is the hard to find NOS parts and the CSX3000 vin on a new chassis.
4. Very high buy in price. My bet will be at least $250,000.00 for the chassis with the CSX3000 stamping and another $100,000.00 to finish with original 427SO and NOS parts. This for a car you can't drive? Its a high priced statute.

I imagine they will be much, much more than that.

Would I pay a lot of extra money for a CSX3000 vin on an original chassis? You bet. Would I pay a lot of extra money for a CSX3000 vin stamped on my chassis? No.

Finishing a Shelby Continuation series to near original specs is expensive and time consuming. Very true. Mine is finished to such a very high level of detail and has the bulk of what's on the list for the CSX3000 series so I know. But there are more details than what's on that list which I have and are not on the list.

I very much doubt your car (or anyone else's made after the original run in the 60's) is finished to the level of detail of these cars. The parts simply don't exist. The list I gave is extremely shortened and doesn't reflect 1/100th of the unreal parts we put in the car. (For example, the car included original Ford--in the box--shift ring, buttons, boot, original Lucas rheostat for dimming the dash lights, original Lucas tie rod ends (I have never seen those), original Ford coil bracket, original Ford fuel filter mount, original Ford solenoid, original Lucas rear view mirror (I haven't seen one of those in years and years), original in the box Girling master cylinders, original suspension rod end boots (most people don't even know about these), original brake line clips, original plastic wiring harness clamps, original grommets!!!, original Girling brake line nuts, on and on and on. I just don't have time to list everything. Like I said, Smaug would be jealous.

My comments certainly aren't a knock on your car or anyone else's. Keep in mind, many ORIGINAL cars are not finished to this level of detail, as they have been modified over the years with replacement parts.

That's my take.

Many of us have art in our homes. What use is that? Who cares about a rock someone chiseled on or a canvas someone threw some paint against? Many do. Art is beautiful on its own.

David

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Many of us have art in our homes. What use is that? Who cares about a rock someone chiseled on or a canvas someone threw some paint against? Many do. Art is beautiful on its own.

David

To each his own. My Continuation Series CSX 4206 is just as beautiful and a work of art for likely 1/2 the price and is what it purports to be and I can drive it too !

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

To each his own. My Continuation Series CSX 4206 is just as beautiful and a work of art for likely 1/2 the price and is what it purports to be and I can drive it too !

To each his own--that is the motto of our hobby and what makes it so great.

I have customers who have our cars in glass cases--fully running and driving rides--in a glass case. Some guys just like to look at them because they are beautiful. One customer has one in aluminum, one in copper, and one bronze. He then bought a Coupe and had us do bronze accents. Our bronze rides are drop dead gorgeous.

I got your message on "kit cars" in my signature line. I keep it there because of search engines.

Thanks for the kind words!

David

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Many of us have art in our homes. What use is that? Who cares about a rock someone chiseled on or a canvas someone threw some paint against? Many do. Art is beautiful on its own.

David

That's going to have to be one heck of a picture hangar to get that Cobra to hang on a wall.