Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I guess I'm a little confused as to why you couldn't get the car registered for street use. I understand that as a turn-key, at least here in CA you wouldn't be able to. But wouldn't there be a way around that by having the car completed as a roller, then buying and having the engine installed separately?

The car will probably come with a Bill of Sale, like most race cars do but not an MSO. Different states will do it differently but in AZ without the MSO, it would be registered as a 2015. It would have to pass 2015 emissions standards and all that BS that goes along with it. Not sure that engine could pass those standards.
Larry

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by LMH

The car will probably come with a Bill of Sale, like most race cars do but not an MSO. Different states will do it differently but in AZ without the MSO, it would be registered as a 2015. It would have to pass 2015 emissions standards and all that BS that goes along with it. Not sure that engine could pass those standards.
Larry

The press release says that the car comes with an MSO signed by CS himself.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by Bernica

The press release says that the car comes with an MSO signed by CS himself.

Autopen, that's Shelbys signature...

[REAL 1]

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

I can't think of any company better to be involved with this project than Kirkham. They are the modern "AC" based on their relationship with SAI and involvement with restorations. Their work is breathtaking and masterful and in my view their cars deserve to be recognized as second generation genuine Cobras. SAAC agrees. Refer to the Registry. Another builder restorer would be McClusky obviously. HRE Motorcars in Freeport LI is also gaining a great reputation as a respected restorer of originals and builder of Continuation series Cobras and GT40s.

It is clear the Kirkham chassis used in their Cobras and supplied to Shelby are the same as the McClusky chassis for the "completion series" as one was reversed engineered from the other and the other reversed engineered from an original. Clones.

Very simply if the MSO for this new Completion series have original signatures then they had to be signed prior to CS's death. When? Who knows. Self evident. If they are duplicate signatures then auto pen. Obviously.

My concern for this "Completion Cobra" project is that they are really misnamed. They are not true completion or resumption cars or whatever synonym you want to use. Putting aside all the great NOS parts, if it does not have an original chassis but carries an original CSX 3000 vin # it is really an "Air Car" as defined by SAAC. None of these new Completion cars was an original car nor did any parts used for them come from an original car. They are new cars using NOS parts never before used on a prior car.

While my Shelby is finished to a very high level of detail which includes the correct seat tracks and knobs, all correct tags and markings, mirrors, correct seat belts, correct carpet, Rebatt style batteries etc...etc...I don't really know if it has the original grommets for the lines, clips, original tie rods and boots, shifter rings etc....and the other nitty gritty details. I do know that what is there is dimensionally correct. Original NOS stuff would all be neat little details to put in during the build if you were even aware enough to do it.

Another concern is if I am buying one of these cars what proof do I have that the nitty gritty parts like a shifter boot for instance or a tie rod is an original NOS part. New reproduction tie rods, new shifter boots, new shifter rings look identical to the old. How do I know that the clips used, grommets are all original NOS parts? Who represents this? Is it in writing? Is their a list as to what is NOS original and what is not that is given to me? If I need a replacement can I get it? Where and from whom? I know I am paying a lot of extra money for this stuff so who is representing I am getting what I am paying for and where is the list of what is original NOS?

There is no doubt that getting these cars aesthetically correct/historically correct is laborious, difficult, time consuming and expensive. This accounts for the difference in price between some Continuation Cobras and other Continuation Cobras. They are not all equal by any means. If historical/aesthetic accuracy is important to you you will have to pay for it. Some scoffed when I indicated that I have a current detailed build sheet from HRE to reproduce CSX 4206 with its original NASCAR 427 SO and all the details would be in excess of $240,000.00.

I do know that the early CSX continuation cars had a lot of details the current ones don't have and a lot of NOS parts Shelby had were used in early cars but stopped in later production. Early CSX Shlebys had things such as Girling brakes, correct suspension, Smith Gauges, Girling reservoirs (I don't know if they are original or repro), even the dimples on the headlight rings, diff coolers, etc....

These new "Completion" cars undoubtedly will be beautiful and extremely detailed and as it was when the originals were new which is amazing, however, I would never spend that kind of money for a car I couldn't even drive. Why it cannot be driven on the street I do not really understand unless the car is being sold as a complete car and therefore must meet DOT regs and clearly can never do so and therefore cannot be driven.

If I were doing one I would insist the car be completed at a dealer so it could be registered for street use.

If owners of original cars have contempt for Continuation Series cars I can only imagine the bile and up roar from them if SAI starts spitting out "new" CSX 3000 series Cobras and referring to them as "Completion Cars" of the "original series" which they clearly are not regardless of how many NOS original parts you stuff into them. If it ain't got an original chassis it cannot be a "completion" Cobra....of course unless SAI is now re-writing the definition of a "Completion" Cobra which I guess they are. However, not even they can change the facts regardless of their self serving re-write.

I would refer to these cars as what they are, Continuation Cobras and give them a special designation suffix. This way it is not purporting to be anything it is not just like the other Shelby Continuation Cobras.

My 2 cents.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

I can't think of any company better to be involved with this project than Kirkham. They are the modern "AC" based on their relationship with SAI and involvement with restorations. Their work is breathtaking and masterful and in my view their cars deserve to be recognized as second generation genuine Cobras. SAAC agrees. Refer to the Registry. Another builder restorer would be McClusky obviously. HRE Motorcars in Freeport LI is also gaining a great reputation as a respected restorer of originals and builder of Continuation series Cobras and GT40s.

It is clear the Kirkham chassis used in their Cobras and supplied to Shelby are the same as the McClusky chassis for the "completion series" as one was reversed engineered from the other and the other reversed engineered from an original. Clones.

Very simply if the MSO for this new Completion series have original signatures then they had to be signed prior to CS's death. When? Who knows. Self evident. If they are duplicate signatures then auto pen. Obviously.

My concern for this "Completion Cobra" project is that they are really misnamed. They are not true completion or resumption cars or whatever synonym you want to use. Putting aside all the great NOS parts, if it does not have an original chassis but carries an original CSX 3000 vin # it is really an "Air Car" as defined by SAAC. None of these new Completion cars was an original car nor did any parts used for them come from an original car. They are new cars using NOS parts never before used on a prior car.

While my Shelby is finished to a very high level of detail which includes the correct seat tracks and knobs, all correct tags and markings, mirrors, correct seat belts, correct carpet, Rebatt style batteries etc...etc...I don't really know if it has the original grommets for the lines, clips, original tie rods and boots, shifter rings etc....and the other nitty gritty details. I do know that what is there is dimensionally correct. Original NOS stuff would all be neat little details to put in during the build if you were even aware enough to do it.

Another concern is if I am buying one of these cars what proof do I have that the nitty gritty parts like a shifter boot for instance or a tie rod is an original NOS part. New reproduction tie rods, new shifter boots, new shifter rings look identical to the old. How do I know that the clips used, grommets are all original NOS parts? Who represents this? Is it in writing? Is their a list as to what is NOS original and what is not that is given to me? If I need a replacement can I get it? Where and from whom? I know I am paying a lot of extra money for this stuff so who is representing I am getting what I am paying for and where is the list of what is original NOS?

There is no doubt that getting these cars aesthetically correct/historically correct is laborious, difficult, time consuming and expensive. This accounts for the difference in price between some Continuation Cobras and other Continuation Cobras. They are not all equal by any means. If historical/aesthetic accuracy is important to you you will have to pay for it. Some scoffed when I indicated that I have a current detailed build sheet from HRE to reproduce CSX 4206 with its original NASCAR 427 SO and all the details would be in excess of $240,000.00.

I do know that the early CSX continuation cars had a lot of details the current ones don't have and a lot of NOS parts Shelby had were used in early cars but stopped in later production. Early CSX Shlebys had things such as Girling brakes, correct suspension, Smith Gauges, Girling reservoirs (I don't know if they are original or repro), even the dimples on the headlight rings, diff coolers, etc....

These new "Completion" cars undoubtedly will be beautiful and extremely detailed and as it was when the originals were new which is amazing, however, I would never spend that kind of money for a car I couldn't even drive. Why it cannot be driven on the street I do not really understand unless the car is being sold as a complete car and therefore must meet DOT regs and clearly can never do so and therefore cannot be driven.

If I were doing one I would insist the car be completed at a dealer so it could be registered for street use.

If owners of original cars have contempt for Continuation Series cars I can only imagine the bile and up roar from them if SAI starts spitting out "new" CSX 3000 series Cobras and referring to them as "Completion Cars" of the "original series" which they clearly are not regardless of how many NOS original parts you stuff into them. If it ain't got an original chassis it cannot be a "completion" Cobra....of course unless SAI is now re-writing the definition of a "Completion" Cobra which I guess they are. However, not even they can change the facts regardless of their self serving re-write.

I would refer to these cars as what they are, Continuation Cobras and give them a special designation suffix. This way it is not purporting to be anything it is not just like the other Shelby Continuation Cobras.

My 2 cents.

This post looks like it was written by a lawyer

In all seriousness, these are very important questions. Frankly, I don't know which original parts will make it on the cars and which ones won't. I imagine Bill and Joe will work that out with the buyer. Some original parts (like original rubber gas lines) are pretty crummy and I wouldn't use them.

David

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

That may be true of "independent dealers" - that is how the current Cobras, and all of the other replicas, e.g., 32 Ford from Backdraft and the new Corvette from Superformance can be sold as year they replicate. However, as far as I know all of the majors that had in-house installation regardless of where they are, have essentially abandoned it due to the new CA regs.

The difference is Shelby has the status of "manufacturer", and manufacturers can't do that even if they weren't in CA.