Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Facts? Yea, right.

I doubt anyone knows the "facts." And any transfer of info from Denbeste to Tony will be 2nd, possibly, 3rd generation "facts." So pretty much, the "facts" are not so much "facts" anymore, but more like interpretations.

I have facts. If you want facts call denbeste. Rich will answer all your questions. And this attitude that the info I was given can't be factual is exactly why it's not worth the bother. You see the greatest majority here wish pray and hope this project will be a dismal failure and are doing your best to make it so. The cars are being built. Get over it.

Keep speculating. It just helps prove that this the only unbiased cobra forum.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I have facts. If you want facts call denbeste. Rich will answer all your questions. And this attitude that the info I was given can't be factual is exactly why it's not worth the bother. You see the greatest majority here wish pray and hope this project will be a dismal failure and are doing your best to make it so. The cars are being built. Get over it.

Keep speculating. It just helps prove that this the only unbiased cobra forum.

Honestly I could care less one way or another. Build them, don't build them. Who gives a $hit. They're all replicas after the 1960's to me anyway.

The fact that these cars can never be driven on a public street or highway is hilarious to me. And fork-lifting them onto a platform against a wall in some warehouse to stare at a replica is .

Facts, puh-leeze. I'm not even sure SAI has a business plan at this point for these Resurrection Cobras. Although the stock price is up, so that's a good thing for a public company.

As Evan mentioned earlier, just inventory the OEM parts and produce accurate build sheets for the new owners of these very expensive pieces of art. I'm just here trying to keep the BS down to a dull roar.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I have facts. If you want facts call denbeste. Rich will answer all your questions. And this attitude that the info I was given can't be factual is exactly why it's not worth the bother. You see the greatest majority here wish pray and hope this project will be a dismal failure and are doing your best to make it so. The cars are being built. Get over it.

Keep speculating. It just helps prove that this the only unbiased cobra forum.

Tony: No question there are some very biased people and some people motivated by nothing more than jealousy here. I have dealt with this for over 15 years here. No one knows better than me about this issue.

However, on the other hand there are some very fair minded people here and also some very knowledgeable people here. While I believe I am very fair minded and look for facts I don't profess to be an expert on these cars. Very knowledgeable? Perhaps compared to the average Joe but not an expert. We do have experts in the nitty gritty of these car who can comment fairly.

The biggest problem with these cars was the nomenclature used for them and awarding them a CSX 3000 vin. Regardless of the best inventory of parts, certified by every recognized expert on Shelby parts, and a certified build sheet and regardless if GOD himself built these cars they are not CSX 3000 cars and don't belong to that series. Period. CSX 3000 and CSX 2000 series belong to an era long gone and part of history. You can't try to change or modify history without criticism or ridicule.

David Kirkham was not afraid to air the facts he knew about these cars. He just could not answer a lot of questions posed. If you are going to build a "completion" car or a "competition" car and represent it has 100% all original parts and is dead nuts accurate and sell it for $500,000 + with a CSX 3000 vin... I think just maybe you might expect some questions from people in the Cobra community. No?

I would think if you are representing you are building such cars you would be willing to explain and provide facts and answer questions. Not run home with you ball because the game got a little rough. That just fuels cynicism and suspicion.

You didn't need permission to tell us what DenBeste told you unless you signed an NDA. I don't understand all this "cloak and dagger" nonsense. This is not doing any good for the project in the Cobra community as far as I'm concerned. The article even said to call if you want to know more "call". I guess well all have to "call" individually since you won't just tell us what you have been told? Come on. Sounds like you have your mind set on one of these cars. That's great. Not knocking it. Many here just have questions. At the end of the day I really don't care since I would never buy one of these cars for the three major reasons. One, I can't drive it on public roads legally as I understand. Am I wrong? Two, it has a CSX 3000 vin which is a canard and apocryphal and will never be accepted in IMHO by SAAC as a true CSX 3000 series Cobra, any owners of originals and the bulk of the Cobra hobby community will never accept them as true CSX 3000 vin Cobras.

UNLESS OF COURSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD SOMETHING???? If this is true what's the secret?

Here's what I am deducing so far. Maybe you can confirm or deny?

1. The cars are to be built on McClusky chassis built for the original "Completion" cars and have the CSX 3000 vins already stamped on them.

2. DeBeneste (and others?) have a stock pile of original parts they will bolt to these chassis.

3. Some bodies are made by McClusky some are Kirkham.

4. The cars will be built all to original spec as close as possible or if the customer does not want to pay for the "Full Monty" a lesser then 100% spec car can be built.

5. You can specify SC or comp spec.

6. I would hope someone is doing a detailed inventory of parts documenting there are sufficient original parts in all regards to build the remaining homologation run and providing a cross referenced build sheet.

7. The MSO's are all signed by Carroll at the time the original completion project was on the runway getting ready to take off.

8. This new project is a "revisiting" of that defunct and discredited "Completion" project with a new spin. The spin being they are now up front in saying the chassis are not real original CSX 3000 chassis but the cars are fitted with all original parts or at least the fully optioned ones.

9. This project is really the "inside out" of the old defunct one. The old defunct "Completion" project you were supposedly getting an original CSX 3000 chassis with most new parts to original or close to original spec. This project is the reverse. New chassis with old parts.

10. Both projects would/are still produce/ing a car that is not what it purports to be. A Cobra of the original CSX 3000 series. As I said GOD himself couldn't change that fact.

99% of my criticism would evaporate if they just re-Vined them with even a suffix to the Vin to identify it as a special sub group to make clear it is not an original chassis. Even "CSX 3077H" would sit better with me and explain more about this stash of parts and the inventory process and just what's there.

Would also love to see an original build sheet of a 100% car. Would be great thing for the hobby and the Cobra community to provide it.

Just say'n.

[fordracing65]

That is how history is made, by people changing what happens in the future, they can name them whatever they want, and long ago they decided to name these 3000 series cars, so here is your chance to own a REAL, Shelby Cobra 3000 series, isn't making history great...

[twobjshelbys]

1. The cars are to be built on McClusky chassis built for the original "Completion" cars and have the CSX 3000 vins already stamped on them.
A: Yes

2. DeBeneste (and others?) have a stock pile of original parts they will bolt to these chassis.
A: Yes

3. Some bodies are made by McClusky some are Kirkham.
A: no

4. The cars will be built all to original spec as close as possible or if the customer does not want to pay for the "Full Monty" a lesser then 100% spec car can be built.
A: Customers don't get to choose. Earlier cars will have more original era parts until the supply is depleted then new or recreation parts will be used. The recipe will be in the build sheet.


5. You can specify SC or comp spec.
A: don't know but I think the press release said S/C

6. I would hope someone is doing a detailed inventory of parts documenting there are sufficient original parts in all regards to build the remaining homologation run and providing a cross referenced build sheet.
A: Your honor, is there a question here?

7. The MSO's are all signed by Carroll at the time the original completion project was on the runway getting ready to take off.
A: That is what I was told but that makes it heresay. Maybe you should ask the source so you get your own answer.

8. This new project is a "revisiting" of that defunct and discredited "Completion" project with a new spin. The spin being they are now up front in saying the chassis are not real original CSX 3000 chassis but the cars are fitted with all original parts or at least the fully optioned ones.
A: Your honor, the prosecution is pontificating. Is there a question here?

9. This project is really the "inside out" of the old defunct one. The old defunct "Completion" project you were supposedly getting an original CSX 3000 chassis with most new parts to original or close to original spec. This project is the reverse. New chassis with old parts.
A: Objection your honor. That question was asked and answered in a different form.

10. Both projects would/are still produce/ing a car that is not what it purports to be. A Cobra of the original CSX 3000 series. As I said GOD himself couldn't change that fact.
A: Objection. The prosecution is pontificating and making conclusions. Is there a question here

[NewYorkGuy]

what's the price?

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

what's the price?

500k for first 3 cars (with 50K of that to the Museum, you can write it off).

As you can see there are two cars in the pipeline. Drew's car is done, David's car is "in paint". Third car expected after the first of the year. Prices after that are subject to adjustment.

My wife vetoed it. She hates Cobras.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

500k for first 3 cars (with 50K of that to the Museum, you can write it off).

Of course, there are AGI deductibility limitations with "write-offs", er, donations. Please consult with your tax advisor prior to purchase.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

1. The cars are to be built on McClusky chassis built for the original "Completion" cars and have the CSX 3000 vins already stamped on them.
A: Yes

2. DeBeneste (and others?) have a stock pile of original parts they will bolt to these chassis.
A: Yes

3. Some bodies are made by McClusky some are Kirkham.
A: no

4. The cars will be built all to original spec as close as possible or if the customer does not want to pay for the "Full Monty" a lesser then 100% spec car can be built.
A: Customers don't get to choose. Earlier cars will have more original era parts until the supply is depleted then new or recreation parts will be used. The recipe will be in the build sheet.


5. You can specify SC or comp spec.
A: don't know but I think the press release said S/C

6. I would hope someone is doing a detailed inventory of parts documenting there are sufficient original parts in all regards to build the remaining homologation run and providing a cross referenced build sheet.
A: Your honor, is there a question here?

7. The MSO's are all signed by Carroll at the time the original completion project was on the runway getting ready to take off.
A: That is what I was told but that makes it heresay. Maybe you should ask the source so you get your own answer.

8. This new project is a "revisiting" of that defunct and discredited "Completion" project with a new spin. The spin being they are now up front in saying the chassis are not real original CSX 3000 chassis but the cars are fitted with all original parts or at least the fully optioned ones.
A: Your honor, the prosecution is pontificating. Is there a question here?

9. This project is really the "inside out" of the old defunct one. The old defunct "Completion" project you were supposedly getting an original CSX 3000 chassis with most new parts to original or close to original spec. This project is the reverse. New chassis with old parts.
A: Objection your honor. That question was asked and answered in a different form.

10. Both projects would/are still produce/ing a car that is not what it purports to be. A Cobra of the original CSX 3000 series. As I said GOD himself couldn't change that fact.
A: Objection. The prosecution is pontificating and making conclusions. Is there a question here

Tony: Some of your objections would be sustained for sure. Good job. My bad.

Ok. Here are some better questions for the witness...

1. Are the cars to be Kirkham bodied?
2. Are the cars to be McClusky bodied?
3. Is there a master inventory being made.
4. Is that master inventory being cross referenced with the builds as the go to reflect dwindling inventory?
5. Does the buyer get a detailed build sheet?
6. Is there any chance at all your wife will let you buy one if you promise to move to a state that will let you register it?
7. Are all the MSO noted with the limitation "For closed course use/off road use only" or the equivalent?
8. Can we get a build sheet of one of the first cars posted here? Did you ask?
9. Is the master inventory and build sheets verified as to the original parts by a known and respected expert and if so who???

[twobjshelbys]

1. Are the cars to be Kirkham bodied?
A: some [one of the first two]
2. Are the cars to be McClusky bodied?
A: Neither of the first two.
3. Is there a master inventory being made.
A: The question is not clear. What do you mean by "master inventory"
4. Is that master inventory being cross referenced with the builds as the go to reflect dwindling inventory?
A: A build sheet will reflect components
5. Does the buyer get a detailed build sheet?
A: Don't know. [Opinion: I asked if they were being done but not if the owner will get one. I wouldn't know why not and if I were buying one I'd ask for it. Your honor I request that last statement be stricken from the record.]
6. Is there any chance at all your wife will let you buy one if you promise to move to a state that will let you register it?
A: No, she hates Cobras of any kind. I may still get one though since I can see out of it (unlike the GT) but it won't be one of these, too much for my blood. That said, what do the CSX1000's sell for?
7. Are all the MSO noted with the limitation "For closed course use/off road use only" or the equivalent?
A: I don't know. These MSOs are from the 90's era McClusky completions.
8. Can we get a build sheet of one of the first cars posted here? Did you ask?
A: I did not ask. [But I doubt they will share them with anyone except the owner. Ask the first buyer. Or become a buyer and ask for it before you purchase.]
9. Is the master inventory and build sheets verified as to the original parts by a known and respected expert and if so who???
A: Objection your honor, asks for an opinion. You're leading again. If you want to know ask Denbeste. I suspect you own a telephone.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

1. Are the cars to be Kirkham bodied?
A: some [one of the first two]
2. Are the cars to be McClusky bodied?
A: Neither of the first two.
3. Is there a master inventory being made.
A: The question is not clear. What do you mean by "master inventory"
4. Is that master inventory being cross referenced with the builds as the go to reflect dwindling inventory?
A: A build sheet will reflect components
5. Does the buyer get a detailed build sheet?
A: Don't know. [Opinion: I asked if they were being done but not if the owner will get one. I wouldn't know why not and if I were buying one I'd ask for it. Your honor I request that last statement be stricken from the record.]
6. Is there any chance at all your wife will let you buy one if you promise to move to a state that will let you register it?
A: No, she hates Cobras of any kind. I may still get one though since I can see out of it (unlike the GT) but it won't be one of these, too much for my blood. That said, what do the CSX1000's sell for?
7. Are all the MSO noted with the limitation "For closed course use/off road use only" or the equivalent?
A: I don't know. These MSOs are from the 90's era McClusky completions.
8. Can we get a build sheet of one of the first cars posted here? Did you ask?
A: I did not ask. [But I doubt they will share them with anyone except the owner. Ask the first buyer. Or become a buyer and ask for it before you purchase.]
9. Is the master inventory and build sheets verified as to the original parts by a known and respected expert and if so who???
A: Objection your honor, asks for an opinion. You're leading again. If you want to know ask Denbeste. I suspect you own a telephone.

Follow up if I may.

1. Who will be supplying the bodies for the rest of these cars after the first two builds?
2. Master inventory is just that. The master list of all the "original parts" utilized for this project. Not asking for opinion. Asking for fact. Objection overruled.
3. Will this master inventory if it is done or exist be updated to reflect dwindling supply.

I do own a phone but really don't care enough to call as I'm not interested in buying one of these cars for the price asked and have a basic idea of what they are doing and thought since you called you would share without an interrogation.

[twobjshelbys]

1. Who will be supplying the bodies for the rest of these cars after the first two builds?
A: The first two we know: Drew Serb and David Kirkham. It was not stated who is doing #3. So there are at least two sources.
2. Master inventory is just that. The master list of all the "original parts" utilized for this project. Not asking for opinion. Asking for fact. Objection overruled.
A: OK, then I'll speculate that the master list is on the bill of sale of the items from Carroll Shelby to Bill Denbeste. It's likely to be "tub of parts"
3. Will this master inventory if it is done or exist be updated to reflect dwindling supply.
A: Who knows how inventory will be managed by Denbeste. [Speculation: The results will be reflected in the build sheet for each car. At some point you'll see the build sheet for one car with "new old stock steering column" become "steering wheel column reproduced by xxx" or the like. As was speculated and explained, earlier cars will contain more original parts. Who knows what parts will not have enough to be original throughout. Maybe they will tell serious buyers. If you want to know when steering columns run out, call Denbeste.]

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

6. Is there any chance at all your wife will let you buy one if you promise to move to a state that will let you register it?

A: No, she hates Cobras of any kind. I may still get one though since I can see out of it (unlike the GT) but it won't be one of these, too much for my blood. That said, what do the CSX1000's sell for?

Hillbank has CSX 1020 for sale right now for $240K:

http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4sa...0-blak-BIG.jpg

Or you can build a CSX like Evan's for about $240K, which would you rather have?

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Hillbank has CSX 1020 for sale right now for $240K:

http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4sa...0-blak-BIG.jpg

Or you can build a CSX like Evan's for about $240K, which would you rather have?

Wow, that is sweet but as explained in the other topic about the recently painted naked lady, black paint is also disallowed in my house. It started with my black Mercedes and when I got the Mustangs I knew it was an obsessive disorder - clean dust off, by the time you're done, it's dusty so start over. By the way, British Racing Green is dark enough that it was the same, except the Cobra was small enough I could take a break between passes.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Hillbank has CSX 1020 for sale right now for $240K:

http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4sa...0-blak-BIG.jpg

Or you can build a CSX like Evan's for about $240K, which would you rather have?

That's a nice car no question. Depends which you would rather have. Mine is extensively more detailed and "correct" but if you want the "AC" connection you want the other one. Details are expensive and hard to do.

To me since neither is an original 3000 series chassis and both are genuine Shelbys one being a 1000 and the other a very early aluminum SAI 4000 which came with a lot more original details from the factory standard, personally it wouldn't matter to me. I would be happy with both.

Mine would take $240K to duplicate new and approximately 1.5 year wait... but we are talking a new car for that sum. Mine is 14 years old and has 8000 miles. If I sold it (which I have no plans to) I wouldn't ask $240K. Something less. Likely around $215K to $220K I think would be fair.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Hillbank has CSX 1020 for sale right now for $240K:

http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4sa...0-blak-BIG.jpg

Or you can build a CSX like Evan's for about $240K, which would you rather have?

A $240,000 replica and they can't get the wipers to park on the correct side!
Larry

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Would also love to see an original build sheet of a 100% car. Would be great thing for the hobby and the Cobra community to provide it.

Just say'n.

That's why I posted this earlier in the thread. At least it is a starting point for a checklist on what is being "reproduced".

AC Cars Shelby American 427 Cobra Master Parts List Bill of Materials Reference | eBay

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Tony: No question there are some very biased people and some people motivated by nothing more than jealousy here. I have dealt with this for over 15 years here. No one knows better than me about this issue.

And then there's the "flock", or "sheep" if you will. The folks who so want to believe, and with such religious fervor, that they can't see the fallacy. Blasphemy! Don't you dare question the religious doctrine, unless of course, your own position within the community happens to be threatened.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

And then there's the "flock", or "sheep" if you will. The folks who so want to believe, and with such religious fervor, that they can't see the fallacy. Blasphemy! Don't you dare question the religious doctrine, unless of course, your own position within the community happens to be threatened.

Nah, I'm good, thanks. I'm a believer in and follower of the Registry which lays out the gospel with logical and clear facts and explanation. The Bible and world wide recognize #1 treatise of all things "Cobra".

It's those who have wandered from it's writings and espoused their own personal dogma and beliefs and opinions that have lost their way.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I'm a believer in and follower of the Registry which lays out the gospel with logical and clear facts and explanation. The Bible and world wide recognize #1 treatise of all things "Cobra".

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Or, we could limit the SAAC registry to cars from the 60's that were actually built then, too.

That "Bible" you refer to can always change.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

It's those who have wandered from it's writings and espoused their own personal dogma and beliefs and opinions that have lost their way.

Unfortunately, those "writings" have changed over time, say kinda like transitions from the Old Testament to the New Testament to the Book of Morman, as one example.

(With no disrepsect to those who follow any particular religion. I'm only using the various religious scriptures to illustrate how writing and thinking can evolve with time and some may disagree with the newer gospel/writings/teachings).