Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Why do ypu have to be so evasive. I just want to know the date ca stopped issuing titles with 1965 Shelby cobra for a csx4000 car. That can't be too hard.

I don't know. I've posted two relevant AG threads. Read them and weep. And do your own homework. Evasive? Puh-leeze.

Am I being evasive or are you being a lazy and not doing your own searches? Hmmm.

Let me know when they became illegal, but it's certainly not relevant to the discussion of a Shelby Cobra being a replica. And I've proven that 1965 Shelby Cobra titles, unless you own an original from 1965, are illegal in CA.

How your "Green Bay Packer Edition" Shelby Cobra replica was titled here in CA, if it truly was at all, is superfluous to any discussion here. Illegal and replica.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Why do ypu have to be so evasive. I just want to know the date ca stopped issuing titles with 1965 Shelby cobra for a csx4000 car. That can't be too hard. If you won't provide a direct answer because you want to prove some silly and insipid point maybe some else who has this simple factoid will.

The actual date they became illegal is irrelevant. They are illegal in CA and the modern Shelby is a replica. Just read the CA AG threads. Have you read the CA AG threads?

As for the "silly and insipid" comment about me, when folks resort to insults, they've run of things to say that have any meaning. And then there's that "sticks and stones" thing. Doesn't bother me a bit. Keep the insults coming, your true self is revealed.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Why do ypu have to be so evasive. I just want to know the date ca stopped issuing titles with 1965 Shelby cobra for a csx4000 car. That can't be too hard. If you won't provide a direct answer because you want to prove some silly and insipid point maybe some else who has this simple factoid will.

Why is the specifc date that those "1965 Shelby Cobra" titles became fraudulent for Cobra replicas (Porsche Speedster and other replicas were affected too) relevant to the discussion? Let's assume your old Cobra replica was registered as a "1965 Shelby Cobra", it's still illegal TODAY and it's still a REPLICA.

Are you being evasive?

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Why is the specifc date that those "1965 Shelby Cobra" titles became fraudulent for Cobra replicas (Porsche Speedster and other replicas were affected too) relevant to the discussion? Let's assume your old Cobra replica was registered as a "1965 Shelby Cobra", it's still illegal TODAY and it's still a REPLICA.

Are you being evasive?

I really like those Speedster replicas...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

I really like those Speedster replicas...

Me too, but I would probably not own one. While SAAC separates the modern Shelby replicas from the original 1960's cars, PCA (Porsche Club of America) doesn't let replica owners into any of their shows or meets. You park your Speedster replica in the parking lot with the Camrys and Accords.

[RodKnock]

CA: New criminal cases filed

Originally Posted by Morgester

As this forum is aware, a kit car or replica vehicle can only be registered in California as a Specially Constructed Vehicle (SPCN). A kit car or replica vehicle that has been titled as the year that it replicates (i.e. 1965 Ford) is considered to be fraudulently titled and the individual submitting the title documents to DMV has committed fraud and perjury by misrepresenting the year of manufacture.

Today the California Attorney General’s office has filed two criminal complaints. The first complaint alleges that Billy Blair / B2 Design Group sold replica 1932 Ford roadsters and provided fraudulent and untruthful registration documents to the California Department of Motor Vehicles in order to procure ownership titles for vehicles without legitimate documentation and allowing these vehicles to evade the vehicle requirements for smog testing by misrepresenting the year of manufacture. The complaint alleges felony violations of Vehicle Code sections 10752 (sale of counterfeit VIN) and 4463(A) (offering false instruments) and Penal Code section 115 (perjury by declaration).

The second complaint alleges that Armand Caprio / California Cobras with the assistance of Elauna Daire Rhea Boren provided fraudulent and untruthful registration documents to the California Department of Motor Vehicles in order to procure ownership titles for replica cobras without legitimate documentation allowing these vehicles to evade the vehicle requirements for smog testing. Elauna Daire Rhea Boren also embezzled pre-paid registration and vehicle fees by significantly understating the true value of the vehicle. The complaint alleges felony violations of Vehicle Code sections 4463(A) (offering false instruments) and Penal Code sections 118 (perjury by declaration) and 530.5 (identity theft).

DMV is in the process of examining and cancelling fraudulently issued title of vehicles that relate to the above investigations.

Law enforcements goal has always been to shut down the illegal registration services. In addition to providing fraudulent registration for kit car or replica vehicles, these services wash title for lemon, salvaged, and stolen vehicles.

Even given the sometimes volatile nature of this forum, I have always tried to be open and candid regarding our investigations and prosecutions. My recommendation today is the same as it was when I first posted to this forum. You are better off correcting the registration sooner rather then later.

[Nedsel]

It is interesting to note that the title illustrated on the previous page purports to show the car was first registered in August of 1965. But by August '65, the only 427 Cobras up and running were full comp cars. And they weren't registered. There were 4 street cars in prototype stage, but they, too, weren't registered by 8/65. Lying on a title is one thing; making up dates that can be proven fraudulent is another entirely. And you still claim these as 1965 vehicles? Get real.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

It is interesting to note that the title illustrated on the previous page purports to show the car was first registered in August of 1965. But by August '65, the only 427 Cobras up and running were full comp cars. And they weren't registered. There were 4 street cars in prototype stage, but they, too, weren't registered by 8/65. Lying on a title is one thing; making up dates that can be proven fraudulent is another entirely. And you still claim these as 1965 vehicles? Get real.

very good point, I love this forum...

[CSX4815]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

It is interesting to note that the title illustrated on the previous page purports to show the car was first registered in August of 1965. But by August '65, the only 427 Cobras up and running were full comp cars. And they weren't registered. There were 4 street cars in prototype stage, but they, too, weren't registered by 8/65. Lying on a title is one thing; making up dates that can be proven fraudulent is another entirely. And you still claim these as 1965 vehicles? Get real.

I wondered about that date too but who am I to question a Arizona state ADOT inspector. Also notice the value listed, $92,500 which was what he came up with as the final cost to finish when new in 2006. The car was inspected by an ADOT vehicle compliance inspector and he knew exactly what it was... a CSX 4000 Shelby continuation Cobra produced in the mid 2000's by Shelby Autos in Las Vegas. Very familiar with the Shelby brand and Shelby Cobras. He produced the paperwork that was used by the MVD office personnel that did the final paperwork. Never once claimed 4815 was produced other than in 2006. NEVER! No fraud here... just the way things are done in AZ.

All I did was show a copy of my AZ title as ask by a previous poster. I thought I would possibly get ripped by others on this forum and I have... Sometimes I really wonder about you guys here! Who are you to question and criticize how the state of Arizona does things compared to other states? I think you guys need to get real!

[LMH]

Originally Posted by CSX4815

I wondered about that date too but who am I to question a Arizona state ADOT inspector. Also notice the value listed, $92,500 which was what he came up with as the final cost to finish when new in 2006. The car was inspected by an ADOT vehicle compliance inspector and he knew exactly what it was... a CSX 4000 Shelby continuation Cobra produced in the mid 2000's by Shelby Autos in Las Vegas. Very familiar with the Shelby brand and Shelby Cobras. He produced the paperwork that was used by the MVD office personnel that did the final paperwork. Never once claimed 4815 was produced other than in 2006. NEVER! No fraud here... just the way things are done in AZ.

All I did was show a copy of my AZ title as ask by a previous poster. I thought I would possibly get ripped by others on this forum and I have... Sometimes I really wonder about you guys here! Who are you to question and criticize how the state of Arizona does things compared to other states? I think you guys need to get real!

I agree. I've had owners from other states tell me that's fraud and my response is to have them call the AZ governor's office and tell them about it.
It really doesn't mean much outside the state as another state is still going to register a replica bought here as their rules apply. It also has to do with emissions standards for AZ. One thing that is bad about that is an original with a 67 model year has to pass emissions to be registered here. Not easy for a big block.
Larry

[RodKnock]

According to Robert Morgester:

"Today the California Attorney General’s office has filed two criminal complaints."

Date of post was November 2, 2007.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

According to Robert Morgester:

"Today the California Attorney General’s office has filed two criminal complaints."

Date of post was November 2, 2007.

Thank you! Now that wasn't very hard was it? We can infer (which may not be legitimage) that no new titles were issued after that data (and perhaps somewhat earlier than that).

But those dates provide a barrier date.

The date on my CA title 7/12/2008 for registration expiration and 7/31/08 for issue date. The fees were $17. So this title was clearly issued AFTER those actions.

How?

I suspect it is partly related to the origin of the car - it was originally sold/titled/licensed in Mexico so came with a title that probably also was for a 1965 Shelby. I think they are obliged to propagate it.

There was no SB100 documentation on the car either. I think it was underway by then.

I too wondered how this could have been done, but it was.

Whether or not the title is viewed by you as "proper" it was issued by the state of CA and was recognized by the State of Colorado.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Thank you! Now that wasn't very hard was it? We can infer (which may not be legitimage) that no new titles were issued after that data (and perhaps somewhat earlier than that).

But those dates provide a barrier date.

The date on my CA title 7/12/2008 for registration expiration and 7/31/08 for issue date. The fees were $17. So this title was clearly issued AFTER those actions.

How?

I suspect it is partly related to the origin of the car - it was originally sold/titled/licensed in Mexico so came with a title that probably also was for a 1965 Shelby. I think they are obliged to propagate it.

There was no SB100 documentation on the car either. I think it was underway by then.

I too wondered how this could have been done, but it was.

Whether or not the title is viewed by you as "proper" it was issued by the state of CA and was recognized by the State of Colorado.

Tony, you really need to check your attitude at the door.

The date that I posted (11/02/2007) is when the first 2 criminal cases were filed by the AG. I have no idea when the actual law, or a law, was enacted. But whether your old CSX got through the system or not, and the Mexican origin helped or not, CA considers it illegal since it CLEARLY WAS NOT BUILT IN 1965.

And also completely irrelevant to the discussion of replica, since titles are handled differently in all 50 states. But if you love a tangent, please proceed. Whatever makes you warm and fuzzy and gets you to sleep each night.

[Nedsel]

Regrettably, it is the Shelby organization that committed the fraud, not the buyers of their product. One has to wonder about marketing tactics that beg the law to look the other way so cars could be sold as something they clearly were not. And this is not a case of not being able to say nice things about my old friend Carroll - it's simply stating the facts.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Regrettably, it is the Shelby organization that committed the fraud, not the buyers of their product. One has to wonder about marketing tactics that beg the law to look the other way so cars could be sold as something they clearly were not. And this is not a case of not being able to say nice things about my old friend Carroll - it's simply stating the facts.

Seems Shelby is no stranger in figuring out ways to bilk customers out of their hard earned money. The csx continuation just being one example. If Kirkham sold row boats, Shelby would sell the same row boat but call it a dinghy and get thousands more for it telling his customers it's not a row boat lol. I would like to know more about the Shelby-McClusky barn yard find, what scam were those two up to with that one?

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Wrong. My Cobra was registered as a 1965 Shelby Cobra. Would you like to see a copy of the title?

Subtract bada bing.

Wow, you actually think what some dumb clerk decided to put on the registration means something lol.

The truth is you or the original owner went through a specialty constructed vehicle, component car, kit car or replica PROCESS to get your registration. What your registration says is irrelevant, different states say different things for the same car. AL G's registration in VA says 1965 Shelby Cobra, but in the comments block it says Replica.

The PROCESS in NJ where that other fruitcake registered his car -

You call the NJ special titles division
You ask them to send you the "kit car package"
You follow the instructions
You trailer the car down to a specialty inspection station
You pass, you get registered
How was the car registered? By following the NJ kit car registration process

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Wow, you actually think what some dumb clerk decided to put on the registration means something lol.

The truth is you or the original owner went through a specialty constructed vehicle, component car, kit car or replica PROCESS to get your registration. What your registration says is irrelevant, different states say different things for the same car. AL G's registration in VA says 1965 Shelby Cobra, but in the comments block it says Replica.

The PROCESS in NJ where that other fruitcake registered his car -

You call the NJ special titles division
You ask them to send you the "kit car package"
You follow the instructions
You trailer the car down to a specialty inspection station
You pass, you get registered
How was the car registered? By following the NJ kit car registration process

Thanks. Now I know how the state of NJ does it. That is not how CO, AZ and NV do it.

[trularin]

LOL

Is there an argument?

[trularin]

BTW, in MI it is an "Assembled Roadster".

They give the frame a VIN and you are good to go.

[RodKnock]

I wish to give a special "shout out" to Jamo, for making this thread a sticky and providing us safe playground in which to play. Thank you.