Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

None of the above. The title was issued AFTER the magic date, and the internal checks and balances would have prevented it had it been so. I checked before I bought it just to be sure. So once again. Bzzzzt.

Sure Tony, whatever gets you to sleep at night. The law in CA is the law. And there's no proof your old car had a CA title. Post up the title.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Sure Tony, whatever gets you to sleep at night. The law in CA is the law. And there's no proof your old car had a CA title. Post up the title.

Pretty low. I won't play YOUR merry go round game. I've already posted the relevant info from the title. You can go find it. Why do you find it impossible to answer a question?

[REAL 1]

Hey Ned: Guess what it already happened. Have you read post 1111? Those are not the words of a potato. That's a potato quoting the potatoes who said and wrote what they wrote in the 4th Edition of the World Registry of Cobras and GT 40's. You should notify them immediately of their errors. They made them all over and throughout that book. Doesn't anybody over there know what they are doing or saying. You must have been asleep at the wheel?

Here is the deal Ned. Of course the Continuation Series are the true replicas of the original car. See your club's registry and Websters. Duh. SAI doesn't need the same corporate structure, the same employees, the same fabrication process etc...to generate genuine Shelby Cobras of a continuation series. They needed Carroll to want to produce a new Shelby Cobra and sell it to the public that was the same or damn near the same in shape and design as his original. It's a "continuation" series Ned. Not an original series silly. It stands on its own in its own series of Shelby Cobras. Let that marinate for awhile. Your club's Registry got it correct.

You club's Registry explains the misuse of that term "replica". Perhaps you didn't read it or perhaps you just don't like it and still push your agenda.

I am using your club's definition of these cars Ned. Not Joe Public's that has been misused. Gee, even your club's Registry implicitly says their definitions should be followed and used as owners tend to use "their own" definitions. Apparently you don't like that section of the Registry either.

Does SAAC know your over here with the barbarians taking a dump on their Registry to push your own personal views? They sold a lot of those books to enthusiast purporting it to be the leading authoritative text on Cobras. Sad that it contains all those misstatements as to the Continuation Cobras. Like I said, notify them immediately.

The new Indian Motorcycles replicate the originals. They are true replicas coming from the reconstituted company. They are not fake Indians are they? No, very simply they are not.

No one is challenging the special place originals have. I'm not certainly. I love them and their history and what they provided to me and others in this hobby. Carroll brought enthusiasts more cars after the originals in the 60's to enthusiasts who love what these cars are and the history behind them. Some of them continue his original car very closely and are "true replicas" and genuine Shelby Cobras some are totally new such as the KR (which did not "replicate the original" in 2008-9) Supersnakes etc.... Those are genuine Shelbys also.

The point is rather simple Ned it's a genuine Cobra. Not an original but an authentic Shelby Cobra. Neither you nor anyone can change that fact.

But I suppose to you and your blinding bias your Club's Registry just gave life to Pinocchio. I get your issue. All Continuation owners get your issue. It's patent.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Hey Ned: Guess what it already happened. Have you read post 1111? Those are not the words of a potato. That's a potato quoting the potatoes who said and wrote what they wrote in the 4th Edition of the World Registry of Cobras and GT 40's. You should notify them immediately of their errors. They made them all over and throughout that book. Doesn't anybody over there know what they are doing or saying. You must have been asleep at the wheel?

Here is the deal Ned. Of course the Continuation Series are the true replicas of the original car. See your club's registry and Websters. Duh. SAI doesn't need the same corporate structure, the same employees, the same fabrication process etc...to generate genuine Shelby Cobras of a continuation series. They needed Carroll to want to produce a new Shelby Cobra and sell it to the public that was the same or damn near the same in shape and design as his original. It's a "continuation" series Ned. Not an original series silly. It stands on its own in its own series of Shelby Cobras. Let that marinate for awhile. Your club's Registry got it correct.

You club's Registry explains the misuse of that term "replica". Perhaps you didn't read it or perhaps you just don't like it and still push your agenda.

I am using your club's definition of these cars Ned. Not Joe Public's that has been misused. Gee, even your club's Registry implicitly says their definitions should be followed and used as owners tend to use "their own" definitions. Apparently you don't like that section of the Registry either.

Does SAAC know your over here with the barbarians taking a dump on their Registry to push your own personal views? They sold a lot of those books to enthusiast purporting it to be the leading authoritative text on Cobras. Sad that it contains all those misstatements as to the Continuation Cobras. Like I said, notify them immediately.

The new Indian Motorcycles replicate the originals. They are true replicas coming from the reconstituted company. They are not fake Indians are they? No, very simply they are not.

No one is challenging the special place originals have. I'm not certainly. I love them and their history and what they provided to me and others in this hobby. Carroll brought enthusiasts more cars after the originals in the 60's to enthusiasts who love what these cars are and the history behind them. Some of them continue his original car very closely and are "true replicas" and genuine Shelby Cobras some are totally new such as the KR (which did not "replicate the original" in 2008-9) Supersnakes etc.... Those are genuine Shelbys also.

The point is rather simple Ned it's a genuine Cobra. Not an original but an authentic Shelby Cobra. Neither you nor anyone can change that fact.

But I suppose to you and your blinding bias your Club's Registry just gave life to Pinocchio. I get your issue. All Continuation owners get your issue. It's patent.

Here is the deal Ned. Of course the Continuation Series are the true replicas of the original car. See your club's registry and Websters. Duh. SAI doesn't need the same corporate structure, the same employees, the same fabrication process etc...to generate genuine Shelby Cobras of a continuation series. They needed Carroll to want to produce a new Shelby Cobra and sell it to the public that was the same or damn near the same in shape and design as his original. It's a "continuation" series Ned. Not an original series silly. It stands on its own in its own series of Shelby Cobras. Let that marinate for awhile. Your club's Registry got it correct.

Spot on Evan couldn't agree more. Regardless of the region of the world, suppliers, etc., is irrelevant. The CSX4000 series are simply the "next genertaion" (continuation) of a Shelby Cobra from the originator of the Original 3000 cars. An MSO issued by the originator (doesn't have to be 100% identical car) is as Real as it gets. Not sure what isn't clear and or accepting in what you're stating.

[RodKnock]

Oh and I forgot to mention that the Registry also states that when Shelby was questioned by authorities regarding the model year being 1965 on the MSO's, he answered, and I paraphrase, "oh, that's just the model number."

Read the Registry.

[Jamo]

SFSDFGT...yup.

[Jamo]

So, modern CSX Cobras are real, genuine Shelby cars, every bit as much as a Shelby Lancer or a 260ci original Cobra. Yup, I can agree to that. Not all Shelby products are created equal...some are badging nightmares [See reference to Shelby Lancer, supra], some are historical icons [See reference to 260ci original Cobra, supra], and some are incomplete, as delivered from the factory, beautiful exacting replicas of the more significant Shelby cars...such as the modern CSXs. No problem with them being valued significantly higher than other Cobra replicas, or being held in such high regard. Worth every damn penny the market will bear in my opinion.

So what?

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Jamo

So, modern CSX Cobras are real, genuine Shelby cars, every bit as much as a Shelby Lancer or a 260ci original Cobra. Yup, I can agree to that. Not all Shelby products are created equal...some are badging nightmares [See reference to Shelby Lancer, supra], some are historical icons [See reference to 260ci original Cobra, supra], and some are incomplete, as delivered from the factory, beautiful exacting replicas of the more significant Shelby cars...such as the modern CSXs. No problem with them being valued significantly higher than other Cobra replicas, or being held in such high regard. Worth every damn penny the market will bear in my opinion.

So what?

So what? With all of the circular discussions, and your absolutely factual and correct summary of all of the circular discussions, everything that can be said has been said.

I move to adjourn.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Jamo

So, modern CSX Cobras are real, genuine Shelby cars, every bit as much as a Shelby Lancer or a 260ci original Cobra. Yup, I can agree to that. Not all Shelby products are created equal...some are badging nightmares [See reference to Shelby Lancer, supra], some are historical icons [See reference to 260ci original Cobra, supra], and some are incomplete, as delivered from the factory, beautiful exacting replicas of the more significant Shelby cars...such as the modern CSXs. No problem with them being valued significantly higher than other Cobra replicas, or being held in such high regard. Worth every damn penny the market will bear in my opinion.

So what?

Yeah. Thats a fair statement. Correcto. Thank you.

See guys, he didn't explode, croak, or fall suddenly ill with stomach pains, no ones rushing to have him involuntarily committed and the world is still here. The birds are still chirping and life goes on. Ahhh. Nice. No????

Now that that's settled I second the motion to adjourn.

[Jamo]

RodKniock and DosShelbys...knock it off please.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Jamo

RodKniock and DosShelbys...knock it off please.

More than happy to.

[Nedsel]

I am honestly beginning to wonder if anyone here actually bothers to read the various posts that they comment about. Where did I say the CSX 4000-series cars were not replicas of the 60's Cobras? Nowhere. That has been my point all along: they are later replicas of a 1965 Cobra. They are NOT 1965 Cobras, no matter what your MSO or title may say. Hence they are different.

Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference.

And to address some questions that have arisen in the process: I didn't buy my car for its appreciation potential, I bought it to enjoy driving it. But Evan seems to think that I must be upset at its value. Permit me to state that (A) it is not a COB, as you have called it (RHD), but a COX, with LHD. It was one of 7 built, and three of those have been converted to RHD and/or 427 specifications, which means it is one of 4 remaining, and one of three with its original alloy skin. (B) The last RHD COB car that I am aware of being for sale (6124) sold earlier this year in the $865,000 range. What does that make a LHD example worth? I don't know, but am I upset with the numbers? Hardly.

Evan has also suggested that his car will no doubt soon be worth as much as a 60's COB car. I'm not certain I agree. Given that they only made 19 of the COB cars, yet they are still cranking out Cobra replicas, I would suggest the standard supply and demand equation will come into play and limit the appreciation curve of the CSX 4000s. Time will tell.

As for the questions raised by the new Lightweight Jaguar E-types being built, Automobile magazine has this to say: "Like most philosophical questions, the issue of whether this car is 'real' or a replica tends towards abstraction, can spark tireless debate, and may be insoluble. As time capsule perfect as they may be, the cars are being built in 2015, not 1963. England's Goodwood Revival vintage-racing festival apparently sides with the replica camp, barring what it sees as masquerading Lighweights at the manor door."

Hmmm... barring the lightweights from the manor door... Nah. This is an open forum.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I am honestly beginning to wonder if anyone here actually bothers to read the various posts that they comment about. Where did I say the CSX 4000-series cars were not replicas of the 60's Cobras? Nowhere. That has been my point all along: they are later replicas of a 1965 Cobra. They are NOT 1965 Cobras, no matter what your MSO or title may say. Hence they are different.

Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference.

And to address some questions that have arisen in the process: I didn't buy my car for its appreciation potential, I bought it to enjoy driving it. But Evan seems to think that I must be upset at its value. Permit me to state that (A) it is not a COB, as you have called it (RHD), but a COX, with LHD. It was one of 7 built, and three of those have been converted to RHD and/or 427 specifications, which means it is one of 4 remaining, and one of three with its original alloy skin. (B) The last RHD COB car that I am aware of being for sale (6124) sold earlier this year in the $865,000 range. What does that make a LHD example worth? I don't know, but am I upset with the numbers? Hardly.

Evan has also suggested that his car will no doubt soon be worth as much as a 60's COB car. I'm not certain I agree. Given that they only made 19 of the COB cars, yet they are still cranking out Cobra replicas, I would suggest the standard supply and demand equation will come into play and limit the appreciation curve of the CSX 4000s. Time will tell.

As for the questions raised by the new Lightweight Jaguar E-types being built, Automobile magazine has this to say: "Like most philosophical questions, the issue of whether this car is 'real' or a replica tends towards abstraction, can spark tireless debate, and may be insoluble. As time capsule perfect as they may be, the cars are being built in 2015, not 1963. England's Goodwood Revival vintage-racing festival apparently sides with the replica camp, barring what it sees as masquerading Lighweights at the manor door."

Hmmm... barring the lightweights from the manor door... Nah. This is an open forum.

No one is saying they are 1965 Cobra nor making the claim they are the same.

What you have stated, is what I believe Evan and 2Shelbys are claiming. They are Shelby Cobras period. Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference. However this viewpoint seems to not be accpeted by others and is being pulled in every directions just not to agree. So the MSO does demonstrate is a Shelby Cobra.

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

No one is saying they are 1965 Cobra nor making the claim they are the same.

Actually, re read post #875 and you'll see, word for word, how Evan misrepresented his continuation replica to the general public in a "for sale" ad as an "ORIGINAL SHELBY AMERICAN COBRA."

Personally, I think he was duped by the master when he originally bought his replica into thinking his car would forever be labeled as an original. And when he found out his "original" was subsequently reclassified as a "continuation", he couldn't bring himself to admit he had consumed the kool aid.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by jhv48

Actually, re read post #875 and you'll see, word for word, how Evan misrepresented his continuation replica to the general public in a "for sale" ad as an "ORIGINAL SHELBY AMERICAN COBRA."

Personally, I think he was duped by the master when he originally bought his replica into thinking his car would forever be labeled as an original. And when he found out his "original" was subsequently reclassified as a "continuation", he couldn't bring himself to admit he had consumed the kool aid.

I think you just cracked the code on the "add error"

[REAL 1]

Ned: No one is suggesting that the Goodwood Revival admit anything other than original vintage cars. I would not advocate to change that. Ridiculous. History has to be preserved. Those cars have a history that should not be interfered with or diluted. I get it and so do all Continuation owners.

Do I think my car will be worth as much as a COB. Nah, likely not. Don't be so sensitive Ned. Lord knows...look at me and what I deal with and I'm still a fun guy. Will my Shelby increase in value? Yes, its worth more than I have in it from 15 years ago. Good chance it will continue to appreciate or hold its value. If SAI takes a tank again then definitely yes. Likely double overnight. But...not the real reason I own it. I love it and love its connection to history, Cobra lore and its connection to CS and SAI and the original car it represents in a new generation of Shelbys.

Yeah, its different than original in a number of ways as far as time, who made it and other details I guess you could pick at.

But its the same in one major and crucial way. Its a Shelby Cobra.

It comes down to respect. Give it to get it.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

But its the same in one major and crucial way. Its a Shelby Cobra.

It comes down to respect. Give it to get it.

Evan, as I have said repeatedly, I have nothing against the current crop of Shelby Cobras. I simply prefer the historic cars to the newer replicas. That is my right. Now, if you desire to start up the argument over how biased I am, go ahead. Forgive me if I don't respond.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I simply prefer the historic cars to the newer replicas. That is my right.

That's how I feel.

Also, for ERANJ's benefit, since he joined us late, and who seems like a really nice person, I wanted to catch him/her up on the list of analogies we've attempted to use over the last 50+ pages in order to describe and compare the Shelby Cobra replica to 1 of the genuine 998:

a) The Present-day Auto Manufacturer (Challenger, Ferrari, etc.) Analogy
b) The Mona Lisa by da Vinci Analogy
c) The Rolex Watch Analogy
d) The Dolly The Sheep Cloning Analogy
e) The Seafaring Vessel (row boats and dingees) Analogy
f) The Tribute Band Analogy (Van Halen, Journey)
g) The Indian Motorcycle Analogy
h) The 6 LW Jaguars built by Jaguar Analogy

I may have missed a few, but that's a solid list.

And I'm still voting for "d."

Producing anything 30-50 years later is a replicating or cloning process. And if something is replicated or cloned, then it simply can't be genuine or authentic. Which brings me back to Evan's license plate, which is "Real427." While he does have an original 427 side oiler, the car itself is a replica. Call it a true replica, whatever that means. To me, it's still a replica.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

That's how I feel.

Also, for ERANJ's benefit, since he joined us late, and who seems like a really nice person, I wanted to catch him/her up on the list of analogies we've attempted to use over the last 50+ pages in order to describe and compare the Shelby Cobra replica to 1 of the genuine 998:

a) The Present-day Auto Manufacturer (Challenger, Ferrari, etc.) Analogy
b) The Mona Lisa by da Vinci Analogy
c) The Rolex Watch Analogy
d) The Dolly The Sheep Cloning Analogy
e) The Seafaring Vessel (row boats and dingees) Analogy
f) The Tribute Band Analogy (Van Halen, Journey)
g) The Indian Motorcycle Analogy
h) The 6 LW Jaguars built by Jaguar Analogy

I may have missed a few, but that's a solid list.

And I'm still voting for "d."

Producing anything 30-50 years later is a replicating or cloning process. And if something is replicated or cloned, then it simply can't be genuine or authentic. Which brings me back to Evan's license plate, which is "Real427." While he does have an original 427 side oiler, the car itself is a replica. Call it a true replica, whatever that means. To me, it's still a replica.

RK thank you for the comment firstly.

You actually missed one though What about the restoration parts that are manufactured by new suppliers other than GM labeled on the box as Genuine GM parts. The point being it's all about licensing which Shelby holds? I sincerely believe that if we are simply stating that CSX4000s are a Shelby Cobra (forget about all the terms in between) than Evan car is a real Shelby Cobra and the license term is accurate. Whatelse is a CSX4000 car a real....replica?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Evan, as I have said repeatedly, I have nothing against the current crop of Shelby Cobras. I simply prefer the historic cars to the newer replicas. That is my right. Now, if you desire to start up the argument over how biased I am, go ahead. Forgive me if I don't respond.

Ned no problem. That is certainly your right. Just so that you know, I have nothing against the original historic Cobras. . And of course I understand your use of the word "replica" as defined by Webster's as recounted in the Registry.

If so, I think you and I are good.