Oil pan studs or bolts? - Page 2

rodneym · #22 (**permalink**) 11-02-2015, 09:21 AM

Nice. Easy to line up.

patrickt · #23 (**permalink**) 11-02-2015, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodneym

Nice. Easy to line up.

Saves on the cost of studs, too.

lippy · #24 (**permalink**) 11-02-2015, 09:45 AM

Yeah, it's leaking again. Put some dye in to check it out. It appears to be seeping in several spots but it is particularly bad at the rear of the pan,and I get drips down the flex plate. The clutch is fine and the inside of the bell housing is dry so I don't think it is the main seal, but I have to check it again closely.

Sort of pisses me off because I was so careful last time. Made sure the (Aviaid) pan flange was flat, cleaned everything meticulously, and used Permatex gasket cement to glue Milodon gaskets to windage tray and then Right Stuff on the other side of each gasket. I then used Canton studs all around and once I torqued them down a couple of heat cycles I added another nut to each stud to lock the primary nut.

But it still leaks. Someone told me the Canton studs tend to loosen but the ARP ones are better. Not sure how different they could be but the locking pattern on the nuts *could* be different.

patrickt · #25 (**permalink**) 11-02-2015, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lippy

Someone told me the Canton studs tend to loosen but the ARP ones are better. Not sure how different they could be but the locking pattern on the nuts *could* be different.

The studs on the passenger side of the oil pan are reverse threaded, just like the wheel spinners.

Detroit Bill · #26 (**permalink**) 11-02-2015, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lippy

Yeah, it's leaking again. Put some dye in to check it out. It appears to be seeping in several spots but it is particularly bad at the rear of the pan,and I get drips down the flex plate. The clutch is fine and the inside of the bell housing is dry so I don't think it is the main seal, but I have to check it again closely.

Sort of pisses me off because I was so careful last time. Made sure the (Aviaid) pan flange was flat, cleaned everything meticulously, and used Permatex gasket cement to glue Milodon gaskets to windage tray and then Right Stuff on the other side of each gasket. I then used Canton studs all around and once I torqued them down a couple of heat cycles I added another nut to each stud to lock the primary nut.

But it still leaks. Someone told me the Canton studs tend to loosen but the ARP ones are better. Not sure how different they could be but the locking pattern on the nuts *could* be different.

That is good that its not the rear main. I am going to replace that this winter..... The rear main on an FE block in antiquated and crude at best.
I would double check it. Look up the design and install of the rear main. It is almost comical. Let's jut say it comes with nails!

I was told by a credible source that synthetic oil can cause problems with old school gaskets. Sounds odd to me but the source was experienced. I don't want to speak for anyone else so I'll skip the name. I think I am going to skip the synthetic next time. The oil will never see 2,000 miles of street use so I think synthetic is overkill.

Barry put me on to this RTV.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Ford-TA-31-Silicone-Sealant/dp/B000NUD02W"]Amazon.com: Genuine Ford Fluid TA-31 RTV Silicone Sealant - 5 oz.: Automotive@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31H%2B5%2BjE0YL.@@AMEPARAM@@31H%2B5%2BjE0YL[/ame]

I have used it and like it. Again I am going with experience here.

I have bolts and my pan does no leak. I went through three tightening cycles, I am at 1,400 miles.

Detroit Bill · #27 (**permalink**) 11-02-2015, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Is that the oil temperature sending unit in the photo?

patrickt · #28 (**permalink**) 11-02-2015, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Is that the oil temperature sending unit in the photo?

It's a mechanical Smiths unit with the capillary tube.

Large Arbor · #29 (**permalink**) 11-02-2015, 11:35 AM

I have studs and bolts from the prior owner. The studs tend to help alignment. Oil leaks for me are more around the rear and front pan seals.

Phil

lippy · #30 (**permalink**) 01-12-2016, 05:43 PM

Revisiting this...

Last time I installed the Canton studs, Permatex red glue between the gaskets and windage tray, and Right Stuff between the gasket/block, and gasket/pan. Gaskets were Milodon crush proof. I even double nutted the studs, flattened the pan rail, and rechecked the torque several times. Still started to leak.

I'm wondering if I should use ARP bolts or ARP studs. Maybe the problem was for some reason with the Canton studs, as someone stated earlier here. I spoke with ARP earlier today and they said studs should actually be better than bolts (more/better clamping) and that the problem is usually the gasket compressing, and not the fasteners anyway. But the crush-proof gaskets shouldn't have that problem...

mikeinatlanta · #31 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 04:57 AM

Studs or bolts will make no difference with leaks. Guys make multiple changes when addressing a leak and just make the assumption that the fastener change helped. If the fasteners are backing off, that is a different issue to be corrected.

Same for the idea of synthetics causing leaks. Guys make the switch and then start checking carefully for leaks and find the leak that was already there. Boom, synthetics cause leaks. Where it get funny is when someone tries to gain credibility with their argument by stating how long they have been living with their own ignorance. Not saying it's happening here (yet), but that's normally where these discussions go.

patrickt · #32 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeinatlanta

Studs or bolts will make no difference with leaks. Guys make multiple changes when addressing a leak and just make the assumption that the fastener change helped. If the fasteners are backing off, that is a different issue to be corrected.

I think that's right. If you look at my pic you can kind of see it. It's nothing fancy, just the block, black RTV, gasket, black RTV, windage tray, black RTV, gasket, black RTV, Canton pan, a few studs and a few bolts all torqued to about 15 ft/lbs -- and it hasn't leaked a drop in a decade. I think either your block is warped, your pan is warped, or you're doing something goofy that I can't think of.

Detroit Bill · #33 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

I think that's right. If you look at my pic you can kind of see it. It's nothing fancy, just the block, black RTV, gasket, black RTV, windage tray, black RTV, gasket, black RTV, Canton pan, a few studs and a few bolts all torqued to about 15 ft/lbs -- and it hasn't leaked a drop in a decade. I think either your block is warped, your pan is warped, or you're doing something goofy that I can't think of.

I think it is the rear main seal to be honest. It sounds like he has been careful and it still has leaks. The rear main seal is antiquated. It can be changed with the engine in the car by the way.

lippy · #34 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I think it is the rear main seal to be honest. It sounds like he has been careful and he still has leaks. The rear main seal is antiquated. It can be changed with the engine in the car by the way.

I know the pan gasket is leaking because it's not only at the rear. It could be the main seal too, though I think the inside of the bell is dry and I understand that to mean the main isn't leaking.

DanEC · #35 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 08:09 AM

I think an issue is when a windage tray is used which requires a gasket above and below which is effectively doubling the gasket thickness and related issues such as maintaining compression. I suspect most pan fastener tension (torque) requirements were for a non-windage tray installation. Throw in another gasket to the mix and the standard fastener tension is no longer adequate to maintain compression of both gaskets without constant attention and re-tightening - and maybe not even then. But if the bolt torque/tension is increased to compensate for 2 gaskets, we run the risk of distorting the pan flange. One way to try and deal with this would be to fabricate a flange reinforcement plate (one for each side) out of at least 1/8 inch steel plate that is drilled for the bolt pattern and fits down in the pan flange recess. Then the bolts can be tightened down more without fear of distorting the pan. Of course the bolt size is a limiting factor on how tight you can go. My 2 cents anyway.

blykins · #36 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 08:16 AM

It's a combination of an aluminum block that squirms with heat, a pan with a windage tray that needs two gaskets, and no reinforcement.

Dan is right, cobrakiwi on here makes stiffening plates that I will use from here on out when I use Aviaid pans or Moroso pans with trays.

lippy · #37 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 09:20 AM

I've thought of a reinforcement as well I may just make my own out of some nice steel bar

rodneym · #38 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

It's a combination of an aluminum block that squirms with heat, a pan with a windage tray that needs two gaskets, and no reinforcement.

I was speaking with Tom Lucas yesterday and he said the exact same thing.

patrickt · #39 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodneym

I was speaking with Tom Lucas yesterday and he said the exact same thing.

... and wasn't I touting the wonders of a quality, decades-old, seasoned iron block just a few threads ago?

rodneym · #40 (**permalink**) 01-13-2016, 09:57 AM

Is it the seasoning that does you well or the 360HP that makes your FE block seem so rigid?

I kid with love.

I don't mind the quarter sized puddle after every drive. Cleaning the mist it makes on the chassis ain't fun, though. My Aviaid is being replaced with a Kirkham billet pan. The rear main is leaking very slightly, but the Aviaid.....