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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2016, 01:35 PM
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How about the Superformance Safir GT40? Or the Shelby HiTech Cobra? Or the Shelby Kirkham Daytona Coupe? Or the Chevy Superformance Grand Sport?

Call all of them what you prefer. The company lawyers have agreed to name them as they're named based upon legal contracts and money. They are what they are.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2016, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by RodKnock View Post
How about the Superformance Safir GT40? Or the Shelby HiTech Cobra? Or the Shelby Kirkham Daytona Coupe? Or the Chevy Superformance Grand Sport?

Call all of them what you prefer. The company lawyers have agreed to name them as they're named based upon legal contracts and money. They are what they are.
superformance and hitech aren't the original manufacturer of these cars, so they cannot continue their production and they don't claim that by the way

as far as i know the term "continuation" is used by the following manufacturers/cars

aston martin > db4gt
jaguar > e-type lightweight, xkss
lister > knobbly
lamborghini > miura
cunningham > cr4
lola > t70mkb
ac > cobra
shelby > cobra, gt40

any other ?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2016, 05:05 PM
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Ferrari is dead....Porsche is dead....the Ferrari you buy today is a Ferrari, just as a Porsche is a Porsche.....the Shelby Cobra you buy today is not a original, but it is a Shelby Cobra...if you want to call it a "continuation" car that is fine.

There is more than a semantical difference between a replica and a continuation car...Like everything., the value is what someone is willing to pay for it

Last edited by Bartruff1; 12-19-2016 at 05:08 PM..
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2016, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bartruff1 View Post
.Like everything., the value is what someone is willing to pay for it
Thats it . To each their own.
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A few Shelbys all gone
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 09:33 AM
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There is more than a semantical difference between a replica and a continuation car...Like everything., the value is what someone is willing to pay for it
To you maybe, but certainly not to me. Just semantics.

"Continuation" is just another euphemism or marketing ploy gimmick for "replica" or "reproduction." And the old SAAC Registry tells the story of the how and why the various moniker(s) came into existence.

But whatever floats everyone's boats. Call it whatever you want, just don't call it "surely" or "Shirley."
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by RodKnock View Post
To you maybe, but certainly not to me. Just semantics.

"Continuation" is just another euphemism or marketing ploy gimmick for "replica" or "reproduction." And the old SAAC Registry tells the story of the how and why the various moniker(s) came into existence.

But whatever floats everyone's boats. Call it whatever you want, just don't call it "surely" or "Shirley."
its not semantic, its causality...
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 12:56 PM
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No, the Continuation Series is a Shelby product with a Shelby Vin and a Shelby MSO and there are laws and regulations the govern the advertising and marketing of a Product.

They all have good lawyers and no replica maker uses the term Continuation Series and if they did they would find themselves in Court.

Words have meanings in context, and if anyone else attempted to sell a Continuation Cobra by conflating the meaning, they might get a visit from the FBI and face fraud charges.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bartruff1 View Post
No, the Continuation Series is a Shelby product with a Shelby Vin and a Shelby MSO and there are laws and regulations the govern the advertising and marketing of a Product.

They all have good lawyers and no replica maker uses the term Continuation Series and if they did they would find themselves in Court.

Words have meanings in context, and if anyone else attempted to sell a Continuation Cobra by conflating the meaning, they might get a visit from the FBI and face fraud charges.
Jaguar:

Inspired by the Lightweight E-type project, each new XKSS continuation will be being painstakingly hand-built at Jaguar’s new facility in Warwick.

The first of the new continuation Jaguar XKSS will be delivered in 2017.


More: Classic Continuations | Iconic Car Recreations | Jaguar

Aston Martin:

One of Aston Martin’s most iconic models – the DB4 G.T. - is to be celebrated with a special series of 25 track-only continuation cars built to lightweight specification by Aston Martin Works at Newport Pagnell.

Remaining faithful to the design of those original eight factory lightweights, each DB4 G.T. continuation will be built with Aston Martin Works’ unrivalled experience and exemplary attention. Employing a blend of old world craftsmanship and modern techniques, continuation cars benefit from improvements in engine performance, handling, braking and safety, with great care taken to ensure these enhancements build upon the original’s exceptional qualities while retaining its feel and character.

Underlining that authenticity are the continuation car VIN numbers, which carry on from the last original DB4 G.T. ordered - Chassis 0202R - for an unbroken bloodline and impeccable Newport Pagnell-built pedigree spanning half a century.


More: https://www.astonmartin.com/en/media...-in-the-making

IMO, the term "continuation" should be restricted to vehicles that are a continuation or an extension of the original production. Different methods may be used in their construction (e.g. TIG welding, stamped aluminum body panels instead of hand-formed), but the cars are as close as they can be to those originally produced both aesthetically and mechanically. Aston Martin is making improvements in a number of areas on their DB4 G.T. cars, but none which should detract from the originals' "feel and character." I'm okay with that.

Based upon the foregoing definition, Shelby's use of the term "Continuation" would be improper, notwithstanding it's otherwise broad acceptance. "Replica" or "representation" would be a more accurate term than "Continuation".

OTOH, Shelby has most likely trademarked the term "Continuation Series" and, as such, has exclusive use to the term - even if it is improperly applied to a replica.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 01:37 PM
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" the term "continuation" should be restricted to vehicles that are a continuation or an extension of the original production."

in fact the shelby "production " is the same than 53 years ago, only that the alubodys are delivered by kirkham instead of ac ( better quality), the specs are completely original
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by peterpjb View Post
" the term "continuation" should be restricted to vehicles that are a continuation or an extension of the original production."

in fact the shelby "production " is the same than 53 years ago, only that the alubodys are delivered by kirkham instead of ac ( better quality), the specs are completely original
So, fiberglass bodied "Continuation Series" cars are completely faithful to original specifications? Other than using the 90" wheelbase, there are many differences, including differences in the frames as well as the shape of the bodies.

There are others far more knowledgeable than me about how faithful the current Shelby "Continuation Series" cars are to the original, and I welcome their input.

TIA
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartruff1 View Post
No, the Continuation Series is a Shelby product with a Shelby Vin and a Shelby MSO and there are laws and regulations the govern the advertising and marketing of a Product.

They all have good lawyers and no replica maker uses the term Continuation Series and if they did they would find themselves in Court.

Words have meanings in context, and if anyone else attempted to sell a Continuation Cobra by conflating the meaning, they might get a visit from the FBI and face fraud charges.
It's just paperwork, marketing, lawyers and names. SEMANTICS! EUPHEMISMS!

It's all good. I call ALL Shelby Cobras made after the 1960's replicas. I totally understand the need to protect the Shelby replicas. There's monetary value to it.

So, NO! Shelby is not really Shelby anymore. An investment group purchased Shelby many years ago and then the company went public.

And as for the SPF GT40s, they're called continuations too. And they're listed in the SAAC Registry, for now. We all know the story. Safir bought the name from Ford and SPF licenses the name from Safir.

But call them "continuations." I call them replicas made by a company that only exists in name. Or, you call them Kirkham's with badges.

We've been through this already a hundred times.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cycleguy55 View Post
So, fiberglass bodied "Continuation Series" cars are completely faithful to original specifications? Other than using the 90" wheelbase, there are many differences, including differences in the frames as well as the shape of the bodies.

There are others far more knowledgeable than me about how faithful the current Shelby "Continuation Series" cars are to the original, and I welcome their input.

TIA
They can't be faithful, since they weren't made in the 1960's.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by peterpjb View Post
" the term "continuation" should be restricted to vehicles that are a continuation or an extension of the original production."

in fact the shelby "production " is the same than 53 years ago, only that the alubodys are delivered by kirkham instead of ac ( better quality), the specs are completely original
The specs are NOT original. Nearly everything is different, right down to the thickness of the alloy. Even something like magnesium Halibrands were used versus alloy Trigos.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 01:59 PM
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BTW,

Here's CSX1013 for sale:
1965 Shelby Cobra AC COBRA | eBay

"Presented here is a 1965 Shelby AC Cobra Vin CSX-1013 as listed in the Shelby Registry. This is the last all aluminum body to be hand built on the original bucks by AC in Britain. Carroll Shelby signed a 3 year contract with AC in 2004 to build 50 a year for a total of 150 cars, These cars were to be exact replicas of the 60’s cars, except for gauges and the things needed to be federally compliant in the USA."

The seller has it correct.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by cycleguy55 View Post
So, fiberglass bodied "Continuation Series" cars are completely faithful to original specifications? Other than using the 90" wheelbase, there are many differences, including differences in the frames as well as the shape of the bodies.

There are others far more knowledgeable than me about how faithful the current Shelby "Continuation Series" cars are to the original, and I welcome their input.

TIA
for sure not the glass models
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cycleguy55 View Post
Jaguar:

Inspired by the Lightweight E-type project, each new XKSS continuation will be being painstakingly hand-built at Jaguar’s new facility in Warwick.

The first of the new continuation Jaguar XKSS will be delivered in 2017.


More: Classic Continuations | Iconic Car Recreations | Jaguar

Aston Martin:

One of Aston Martin’s most iconic models – the DB4 G.T. - is to be celebrated with a special series of 25 track-only continuation cars built to lightweight specification by Aston Martin Works at Newport Pagnell.

Remaining faithful to the design of those original eight factory lightweights, each DB4 G.T. continuation will be built with Aston Martin Works’ unrivalled experience and exemplary attention. Employing a blend of old world craftsmanship and modern techniques, continuation cars benefit from improvements in engine performance, handling, braking and safety, with great care taken to ensure these enhancements build upon the original’s exceptional qualities while retaining its feel and character.

Underlining that authenticity are the continuation car VIN numbers, which carry on from the last original DB4 G.T. ordered - Chassis 0202R - for an unbroken bloodline and impeccable Newport Pagnell-built pedigree spanning half a century.


More: https://www.astonmartin.com/en/media...-in-the-making

IMO, the term "continuation" should be restricted to vehicles that are a continuation or an extension of the original production. Different methods may be used in their construction (e.g. TIG welding, stamped aluminum body panels instead of hand-formed), but the cars are as close as they can be to those originally produced both aesthetically and mechanically. Aston Martin is making improvements in a number of areas on their DB4 G.T. cars, but none which should detract from the originals' "feel and character." I'm okay with that.

Based upon the foregoing definition, Shelby's use of the term "Continuation" would be improper, notwithstanding it's otherwise broad acceptance. "Replica" or "representation" would be a more accurate term than "Continuation".

OTOH, Shelby has most likely trademarked the term "Continuation Series" and, as such, has exclusive use to the term - even if it is improperly applied to a replica.
So, besides the improvements and enhancements and the different methods used in their construction, and can't be legally used on roads not including racetracks, the new DB4 GT's "continuations" are authentic and the 'bloodlines are unbroken."

Yaaaa, sure. What a crock of S. Unbroken bloodline? They must mean besides at least 1 bankruptcy and being sold several times including Ford owning them for a while. Unbroken. Holy cow!

Yep, it's a "continuation," of something, alright.

What's next, the Rolex, Dodge Challenger or Grateful Dead/Journey/Van Halen "continuation" analogy?

Last edited by RodKnock; 12-20-2016 at 03:48 PM..
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 04:37 PM
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rodnock, cannot understand why you are so upset, nobody denies that continuation cars are replicas, but they are replicas from the original manufacturer, thats all...

and btw every company had changes in economics over the decades, even and especially porsche (vw) and ferrari (fiat), etc...
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2016, 08:19 PM
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rodnock, cannot understand why you are so upset, nobody denies that continuation cars are replicas, but they are replicas from the original manufacturer, thats all...

and btw every company had changes in economics over the decades, even and especially porsche (vw) and ferrari (fiat), etc...
I'm not upset. I find it all very funny. That's why I use this emoji You do understand that emoji correct?

Yes, every manufacturer has changed ownership in some form or another. And that's my point. They're no longer the "original" manufacturer and when they call them "continuations," all that really means is that they're reproducing a replica of an old car from 50 years ago. "Continuation" is just a fancy word for replica.

Shelby, Aston Martin and Jaguar can call them continuations or anything else they want. All it means to me and many others is that they're replicas made by a company that is no longer the actual OEM. The OEM in its original form is long gone.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2016, 01:15 AM
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...

Yes, every manufacturer has changed ownership in some form or another. And that's my point. They're no longer the "original" manufacturer and when they call them "continuations," ...

.....
what defines the "originality" of a manufacturer?
is there more originality of a manufacturer than in the personality of the founder, inventor, eponym and (partial) owner?

in this case SAI can claim to be the original manufacturer until 2012 at least

and in that case you're right, neither aston martin, jaguar, ac, maserati nor any other company can claim this in matters of continuation cars.....
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Old 12-21-2016, 09:42 AM
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what defines the "originality" of a manufacturer?
is there more originality of a manufacturer than in the personality of the founder, inventor, eponym and (partial) owner?

in this case SAI can claim to be the original manufacturer until 2012 at least

and in that case you're right, neither aston martin, jaguar, ac, maserati nor any other company can claim this in matters of continuation cars.....
From memory, Shelby American was sold sometime prior to 2003 to an investor group which purchased roughly 75% +/- of the company stock. And in 2003, CSBI (Carroll Shelby International) was born and has been a public traded company since. And yes, Carroll Shelby passed in 2012, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Manufacturers can claim or use the term "continuation." SPF claims their GT40's are "continuations." But we all know that it's NOT 1960's anymore. With the Shelby Cobra replicas, there's a gap of around 30 years between production and the cars NOT made in the 1960's are "kit cars," "component cars" or "specially constructed vehicles."

We've really beaten this dead horse a 1,000,000 times already. Let's move on.
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