A.C. Cars Ltd. looking for info

[mrmustang]

After days of looking over the OP's pictures (thanks Larry), my conclusion is as follows:

Kimmin's (sp) body and frame


Not ever legally imported to Canada, but in Canada just the same, rumors of one that was brought over the border supposedly in a truck filled with snow blowers back in the mid to late 90's have been quietly floating around, but have never been substantiated, could this be that chassis?

Regardless, COB 0666 or COB 666 is an invalid/false/fake/illegally stamped chassis number and by someone doing so, risks the confiscation and disposal of said chassis by TransCanada and/or it's judicial arm.

OP's major problem is that there is no MSO/MCO, therefore he will not be able to legally explain it's lineage or prove it's actual age to TransCanada. If there is a MSO/MCO, then OP has a little more disclosure/explaining to do, past his "amnesia" as to how he came upon the chassis/body years ago, and just now was able to secure it in his garage again. No offense, but I can remember 95% of the 300+ cars that have come through my personal collection over the years, and I'm the guy with ADHD.


Bill S.

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

After days of looking over the OP's pictures (thanks Larry), my conclusion is as follows:

Kimmin's (sp) body and frame


Bill S.

How did you come to that conclusion? (Kimmin's built)
Please give details of the workmanship or items that support your findings!

[adv-ent]

Bill S, why does this thread now need to turned into some kind of conspiracy. This thread was supposed to be all about if the actual manufacture could be identified. and no, it didn't come across the boarder with snow blowers.
Amnesia????? I explained in previous posts and have had numerous private conversations with forum members on how I became in possession of it.
I purchased it in the US, it is only a body and chassis, it was cleared by a local Cobra manufacture, I traded it for work towards the Cobra you see in my avatar and now I bought it back. Like I said it was in storage here for over 7 years.
I can't make you believe me so lets move onto to what the thread is supposed to be about. If I was a Cobra expert like yourself I wouldn't have need to start this thread, I am only looking for information and as I stated earlier it doesn't mater to me who made it but I thought it would be nice to know and also I thought it would be of some interest to others.
As far as Cobra's coming into Canada, a few years back there was a complete Kirkham roller, pained blue on E-Bay and the car was on Vancouver Island BC Canada?
BK

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

How did you come to that conclusion? (Kimmin's built)
Please give details of the workmanship or items that support your findings!

To do so would advertise the differences in frame/body/attachment (those are your hints), something I'm not willing to do, sorry

Originally Posted by adv-ent

Bill S, why does this thread now need to turned into some kind of conspiracy. This thread was supposed to be all about if the actual manufacture could be identified. and no, it didn't come across the boarder with snow blowers.
Amnesia????? I explained in previous posts and have had numerous private conversations with forum members on how I became in possession of it.
I purchased it in the US, it is only a body and chassis, it was cleared by a local Cobra manufacture, I traded it for work towards the Cobra you see in my avatar and now I bought it back. Like I said it was in storage here for over 7 years.
I can't make you believe me so lets move onto to what the thread is supposed to be about. If I was a Cobra expert like yourself I wouldn't have need to start this thread, I am only looking for information and as I stated earlier it doesn't mater to me who made it but I thought it would be nice to know and also I thought it would be of some interest to others.
As far as Cobra's coming into Canada, a few years back there was a complete Kirkham roller, pained blue on E-Bay and the car was on Vancouver Island BC Canada?
BK

So you bought it new from a US manufacturer, then you would have a MSO/MCO, shipping records, your "local Cobra manufacture" who cleared it (cleared it how, through TransCanada, if that is the case, they hold their records for 25 years, a simple call to them could garner the information you seek, or open Pandora's Box which you should be worried about) or some record of payment to them, why not just say that, and post that in the first place. Your lack of transparency, your withholding of vital information, when you are asking for our assistance, seems a bit questionable at best. Further, no conspiracy on my part, I think I spent quite a bit of time going over your photographs, digging through my 20+ file boxes, comparing countless other photographs, of other aluminum body/chassis manufacturers (both commercial and private in nature), along with going over all of your previous posts on the subject and spelled it out, as I now see it, quite clearly. Sorry if that stings a little, but I am blunt when it comes to such things, preferring the facts, as laid out, by you, to speak for themselves.

Or, I guess our time, energy, and efforts are not as important as the time it took for you to ask for our free assistance.

Bill S.

[adv-ent]

Bill S, where did you ever get new from?????? If I bought it new I would know who built it???? You are now just causing trouble.
I already have mentioned previously where I picked it up from.
It seems everybody else here is trying to help and showing interest which I greatly appreciate but you are making up issues as you go.
Please follow the hole thread or keep your opinions to your self until you know what actually is going on. I have had some great responses from members and you are the first to mention this is a problem.
If this is to much work for you please move on and I don't need your kind of help, and I apologize if this is costing you. Thanks.
This is the first time I have ever posted anything here and have been a member for over 8 years, guys like you make me wish I would have stayed a spectator.
I would like to thank everybody who has contributed to this thread and I would just like to say again, I am not hiding anything, I am not trying to deceive anybody I just thought it would be interesting if someone could identify the manufacturer.
I also would like to again apologize to Bill S if I have wasted his time.
BK

[mrmustang]

Snipped for clarity

Originally Posted by adv-ent

I already have mentioned previously where I picked it up from.
just thought it would be interesting if someone could identify the manufacturer.
I also would like to again apologize to Bill S if I have wasted his time.
BK

If you picked it up at a shop doing work on your Cobra, why would they not have information on where it came from?

You further mention it was "cleared by a local Cobra manufacture", which one? Certainly they would have information on it seeing they brought it across the border.

My time was not wasted, but your attack on me sounded like it was. Clearly, you did not appreciate the time and effort that went in to answering your question as to who the manufacturer was/is. So many come in and ask for such advice, thinking it's a simple thing, when in fact, it is not, and those of us who are willing to step up, are offering our time, time we could have spent with our friends and family, to do the research and respond.



Bill S.

[cobrakiwi]

[quote=mrmustang;1406026]To do so would advertise the differences in frame/body/attachment (those are your hints), something I'm not willing to do, sorry



So why not?
Others here have been very helpful in trying to help the OP, and given there reasons and pointed out certain areas to validate there findings.

But not you, you come on here and lay claim to a Kimmins build but cannot give any proof or point out any features to validate your verbiage.

With all due respect, I think this caliber of build is a little out of your league.

Also care to answer why you think the letters COB and the number 0 and 6 are illegal to stamp on such a build?

I find this thread to be very interesting and wish the OP all the best with what he decides to do with his build.

[mrmustang]

Disclaimer: this response has nothing to do with the OP, or his chassis

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

So why not?

Just as with original Cobra's, Shelby's, Ferrari's, Porsche's and several others that get copied due to the value of the originals, it is likely that others coming in here after a Google search could garner important information that they would then use to alter a chassis to make it "appear more original" to one manufacturer or another. We have seen it attempted with Kirkham and McClusky built chassis/body combinations in the past (called "AIR CARS"), it is"details", not shared with the general public, were the give-a-way and caused the copies to be shown as frauds when confronted with an original "owner unknown" car showing up, when in fact the original car was not really "unknown", and in at least one case, was still with the original owner/family with an unbroken chain of custody from new.

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

Also care to answer why you think the letters COB and the number 0 and 6 are illegal to stamp on such a build?

Without being a licensed manufacturer, you cannot arbitrary stamp a VIN number into a chassis and make it your own. As a licensed manufacturer, you are required to file paperwork with your governing body and issue a MSO/MCO for the chassis.

As the perfect example, think back a few years to the story of 100 "found and forgotten" CSX3000 series chassis, which in reality were not NOS, but newly constructed.

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

With all due respect, I think this caliber of build is a little out of your league.

Just because I do not currently own an original CSX2000/3000 series, a Kirkham, Kimmins, AC MK, or McClusky (among others), does not mean I have not worked on, driven, help restore/rebuild/build/studied up close and in person any or all of the above 1-14 times over. Keep in mind, I've been around these cars since the late 70's and have seen more than most.

Bill S

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

... deleted some ...

So you bought it new from a US manufacturer, then you would have a MSO/MCO, shipping records, your "local Cobra manufacture" who cleared it (cleared it how, through TransCanada, if that is the case, they hold their records for 25 years, a simple call to them could garner the information you seek, or open Pandora's Box which you should be worried about) or some record of payment to them, why not just say that, and post that in the first place. Your lack of transparency, your withholding of vital information, when you are asking for our assistance, seems a bit questionable at best. Further, no conspiracy on my part, I think I spent quite a bit of time going over your photographs, digging through my 20+ file boxes, comparing countless other photographs, of other aluminum body/chassis manufacturers (both commercial and private in nature), along with going over all of your previous posts on the subject and spelled it out, as I now see it, quite clearly. Sorry if that stings a little, but I am blunt when it comes to such things, preferring the facts, as laid out, by you, to speak for themselves.

Or, I guess our time, energy, and efforts are not as important as the time it took for you to ask for our free assistance.

Bill S.

Bill,

I thought he said he bought it from a previous owner, not a manufacturer, which would explain why he does not know who the manufacturer is.

And that further he said he had it brought into Canada as parts, so presumably he does not need an MCO. I imagine that he needed some sort of receipt for the parts and still has that. He mentions a local builder or manufacturer who helped clear the parts into Canada. I suppose it might be interesting to know how the local builder helped, but maybe that is irrelevant other than it got the frame and body into Canada as parts with some sort of paperwork to prove his ownership of the parts.

It seems that he is just interested in knowing who made frame and body for his own interest and not as some requirement for registering the car.

Ken

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Bill,

I thought he said he bought it from a previous owner, not a manufacturer, which would explain why he does not know who the manufacturer is.

And that further he said he had it brought into Canada as parts, so presumably he does not need an MCO. I imagine that he needed some sort of receipt for the parts and still has that. He mentions a local builder or manufacturer who helped clear the parts into Canada. I suppose it might be interesting to know how the local builder helped, but maybe that is irrelevant other than it got the frame and body into Canada as parts with some sort of paperwork to prove his ownership of the parts.

It seems that he is just interested in knowing who made frame and body for his own interest and not as some requirement for registering the car.

Ken

Hey Ken,

Since I can't see the original post, and nobody quoted it before it disappeared, I can't confirm that. I can only go with what I can see (Larry's pictures appear to have been taken down from his hosting source, that or we exceeded their bandwidth with the host) and read. OP came in, asked for assistance, you and I gave it, along with our opinions, and he came back and felt they were a personal attack on him, which of course, you and I know, was incorrect. Just look at his response to what you wrote in post #54, and again after I posted (#72) calling the car a Kimmons and adding my concerns for the seller, but not calling him out on anything, but he will continue to take everything personally, when he should take a step back and reread everything with a clearer head. Having hands on experience with working on the body/chassis/repair and such you notice certain aspects, things I saw point to Kimmins, I'll stand by that unless proven beyond a shadow of a doubt differently. I'm just here to assist where I can, while others want to fall back to the old, worn out adage of "you don't own XXX, so you don't know anything about them", you and I know that ownership is not required, but the enthusiasm is. I've got no dog in this hunt, and apologize to the others who believe that I do/did.

I'm off to get coffee (you can never have too much coffee).


Bill S.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

After days of looking over the OP's pictures (thanks Larry), my conclusion is as follows:

Kimmin's (sp) body and frame

Presumably Bruce Kimmins and his brother Colin - Kimmins Coach Craft. Lake Havasu City, AZ. Telephone: 520‑680‑0515

Are they still in business?

[adv-ent]

Hi cycleguy55, I phoned the number and it is not in service?
Brian

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by adv-ent

Hi cycleguy55, I phoned the number and it is not in service?
Brian

Well, I guess that answers the question about whether they're still in business.

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

After days of looking over the OP's pictures (thanks Larry), my conclusion is as follows:

Kimmin's (sp) body and frame


Not ever legally imported to Canada, but in Canada just the same, rumors of one that was brought over the border supposedly in a truck filled with snow blowers back in the mid to late 90's have been quietly floating around, but have never been substantiated, could this be that chassis?

Regardless, COB 0666 or COB 666 is an invalid/false/fake/illegally stamped chassis number and by someone doing so, risks the confiscation and disposal of said chassis by TransCanada and/or it's judicial arm.

OP's major problem is that there is no MSO/MCO, therefore he will not be able to legally explain it's lineage or prove it's actual age to TransCanada. If there is a MSO/MCO, then OP has a little more disclosure/explaining to do, past his "amnesia" as to how he came upon the chassis/body years ago, and just now was able to secure it in his garage again. No offense, but I can remember 95% of the 300+ cars that have come through my personal collection over the years, and I'm the guy with ADHD.


Bill S.

Right! This is not calling anyone out then?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

Right! This is not calling anyone out then?

Originally Posted by adv-ent

Mr olddog and Mrmustang, I truly appreciate your time and others on this thread but what I still don't understand is why there is so much talk of fraud and deceit and now playing with dynamite? I have never tried to pass this off as anything rare or try to say it is something that it is not, if I was trying to defraud as you put it I wouldn't have put it on this site in the first place. I don't understand why it makes a difference if you think I am honest or not, you can't possibly know either way so what ever you think of me personally doesn't matter to this thread. I started this thread because I know nothing of aluminum cars no mater who makes them, my own car is a fiberglass replica, although it is a very high end built car I still have nothing to compare.
Fraud, dynamite deceit? I have no idea what you want from me and what I can do to make you believe all I was looking for is help on identifying the manufacturer so very early on in this thread it was established that it couldn't be a AC car so what is it then, that's what we are looking for. It doesn't really matter why or who put such an obvious fake COB number does it because everybody seems to know there is no such thing so lets move on. There are absolutely on other stamps on the car other than what has already been mentioned.
Thanks again for all the members help on this thread.
BK

How you interpret Bill's words is your interpretation, it's certainly not mine. Bill is trying to help and he calls them as he sees them. He's blunt.

Two facts are known.

1. The car is stamped with a COB number. And it's not a COB. Describe it as you will, but as long as it retains that invalid COB # it can be passed off as a fraud, maybe not with the OP, but potentially some other owner in the future. There are plenty of examples of cars with invalid COB for CSX numbers in the Registry, two owners claiming the same COB or CSX number, etc.

So as long as this Cobra retains that COB number it represents the potential for fraud. That's the bottom line.

2. No one here has been able to determine the manufacturer of origin. IMO, the workmanship is well below that of a Kirkham/CSX and the body of the Kirkham/CSX and the OP's car have obvious differences.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

How you interpret Bill's words is your interpretation, it's certainly not mine. Bill is trying to help and he calls them as he sees them. He's blunt.

Two facts are known.

1. The car is stamped with a COB number. And it's not a COB. Describe it as you will, but as long as it retains that invalid COB # it can be passed off as a fraud, maybe not with the OP, but potentially some other owner in the future. There are plenty of examples of cars with invalid COB for CSX numbers in the Registry, two owners claiming the same COB or CSX number, etc.

So as long as this Cobra retains that COB number it represents the potential for fraud. That's the bottom line.

2. No one here has been able to determine the manufacturer of origin. IMO, the workmanship is well below that of a Kirkham/CSX and the body of the Kirkham/CSX and the OP's car have obvious differences.

Can you elaborate on the obvious differences to a KMS or SA car?
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

Can you elaborate on the obvious differences to a KMS or SA car?
Larry

You mean besides the fact that there are no Kirkham serial numbers stamped anywhere on the car? And I mentioned a few differences in an earlier post.

And when you say KMS or SA car, they're for the most part the same, since Kirkham makes the bodies for SA. And actually produces almost the entire car for the 50th anniversary CSX's.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You mean besides the fact that there are no Kirkham serial numbers stamped anywhere on the car? And I mentioned a few differences in an earlier post.

And when you say KMS or SA car, they're for the most part the same, since Kirkham makes the bodies for SA. And actually produces almost the entire car for the 50th anniversary CSX's.

You site hinges, bolts and body. Bolts are actually from the same manufacturer as the stamping on head illustrates. The hinges look some what different, I agree but so do other Kirkhams when you search through photos of them. Guessing changes were made during production periods as newer/better tooling was purchased. What are the differences in the body though?
Larry

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

How you interpret Bill's words is your interpretation, it's certainly not mine. Bill is trying to help and he calls them as he sees them. He's blunt.

Two facts are known.

1. The car is stamped with a COB number. And it's not a COB. Describe it as you will, but as long as it retains that invalid COB # it can be passed off as a fraud, maybe not with the OP, but potentially some other owner in the future. There are plenty of examples of cars with invalid COB for CSX numbers in the Registry, two owners claiming the same COB or CSX number, etc.

So as long as this Cobra retains that COB number it represents the potential for fraud. That's the bottom line.

2. No one here has been able to determine the manufacturer of origin. IMO, the workmanship is well below that of a Kirkham/CSX and the body of the Kirkham/CSX and the OP's car have obvious differences.

Its also my interpretation Bill is wrong yet again on this one, (Kimmin's built)
Yes he is blunt, help? Not what I would call it

I think there has been a few people here point out more than enough points to determine the origin of the body/frame.

Workmanship looks great, one of the better ones I have seen


Fraud? Sorry I don't see it!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

Its also my interpretation Bill is wrong yet again on this one, (Kimmin's built)
Yes he is blunt, help? Not what I would call it

I think there has been a few people here point out more than enough points to determine the origin of the body/frame.

Workmanship looks great, one of the better ones I have seen


Fraud? Sorry I don't see it!

That's hilarious because I haven't seen any evidence that would identify any manufacturer of origin. It certainly lacks any Kirkham #'s.

If it's got an AC badge with a fake COB # on it and the fake COB # is stamped on the car, then it's looking a lot like a fraud to me.

Funny how people can have two different opinions based upon very little fact.