A.C. Cars Ltd. looking for info

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

I had heard that at one time when they were first starting to produce the bodies and frames for Kirkham anyone could buy products directly from the factory. I'm sure the Kirkhams stopped that once they bought the land and the factory.

What are the chances this could have been purchased before the Kirkhams bought the property and factory?

Cheers!


Dugly

Going back to this thought, if it was possible to order a body and frame directly from the Polish factory before Kirkham purchased the factory, I suppose the original buyer could have told the factory to stamp whatever he/she wanted for a serial number on the frame.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Going back to this thought, if it was possible to order a body and frame directly from the Polish factory before Kirkham purchased the factory, I suppose the original buyer could have told the factory to stamp whatever he/she wanted for a serial number on the frame.

Before Kirkham purchased the Polish factory they were making airplanes. The Kirkham story in brief:

"The idea for Kirkham Motorsports started in 1994 with the mission to build the finest replicas in the world. It all began when David Kirkham was restoring the 427 Shelby Cobra CSX3104. At the same time, a relative bought, sold and imported to the US a Polish fighter jet (in that order). The already sold jet had bounced inside the shipping container and the nose was severely dented. David was called to fix the plane, and during inspection of the damage, realized the construction was strikingly similar to CSX3104.

Inspired, David found the manufacturer in Poland and sent a fax off to Poland. The simple note read, "Can you guys build an aluminum bodied car?" Within 12 hours the reply: "No problem."

A week later, David was on a plane to Warsaw with an English-Polish dictionary, a toy model of a Cobra, and a dream. He spent a week scouting the factory and exploring their manufacturing abilities. He saw a silent factory with idle machines. The enormous factory had produced aircraft for over 60 years. During the tour, David knew this was the place he wanted to build cars. After meeting with three generations of skilled craftsmen eager to make these cars, he forged some agreements and left filled with high expectations and enthusiasm. Since then, Kirkham Motorsports has become one of the leading manufacturers in the component car industry. At the inception of the company, KM focused on building the most accurate replicas in the business. Kirkham Motorsports still offers incredibly accurate replicas, but technology and manufacturing techniques have evolved since the 1960’s. KM is an engineering focused company and has pushed the performance envelope without forgetting originality."

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Before Kirkham purchased the Polish factory they were making airplanes. The Kirkham story in brief:

"The idea for Kirkham Motorsports started in 1994 with the mission to build the finest replicas in the world. It all began when David Kirkham was restoring the 427 Shelby Cobra CSX3104. At the same time, a relative bought, sold and imported to the US a Polish fighter jet (in that order). The already sold jet had bounced inside the shipping container and the nose was severely dented. David was called to fix the plane, and during inspection of the damage, realized the construction was strikingly similar to CSX3104.

Inspired, David found the manufacturer in Poland and sent a fax off to Poland. The simple note read, "Can you guys build an aluminum bodied car?" Within 12 hours the reply: "No problem."

A week later, David was on a plane to Warsaw with an English-Polish dictionary, a toy model of a Cobra, and a dream. He spent a week scouting the factory and exploring their manufacturing abilities. He saw a silent factory with idle machines. The enormous factory had produced aircraft for over 60 years. During the tour, David knew this was the place he wanted to build cars. After meeting with three generations of skilled craftsmen eager to make these cars, he forged some agreements and left filled with high expectations and enthusiasm. Since then, Kirkham Motorsports has become one of the leading manufacturers in the component car industry. At the inception of the company, KM focused on building the most accurate replicas in the business. Kirkham Motorsports still offers incredibly accurate replicas, but technology and manufacturing techniques have evolved since the 1960’s. KM is an engineering focused company and has pushed the performance envelope without forgetting originality."

Sure, but you COMPLETELY missed Dugly's point. His theory is that during the timeframe between Kirkham getting the first car and buying the Polish factory, he heard that the factory might have sold cars to people other than the Kirkhams.

If you read your registry further you may see something about Kirkham eventually bought the factory after some troubles with Poland that I cannot recall at this moment.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Sure, but you COMPLETELY missed Dugly's point. His theory is that during the timeframe between Kirkham getting the first car and buying the Polish factory, he heard that the factory might have sold cars to people other than the Kirkhams.

If you read your registry further you may see something about Kirkham eventually bought the factory after some troubles with Poland that I cannot recall at this moment.

No, I didn't miss the point, but I'm also not going to say that it could NEVER happen either. A conspiracy theory is a conspiracy theory.

In that brief snippet that I posted directly from the Kirkham website, "he (David Kirkham) forged some agreements" with the Polish factory to build Cobras. So, is Dugly trying to say that Kirkham, a smart business person, didn't have exclusive rights to that Polish factory for every single Cobra made and that the Polish factory may have sold "knockoff" Kirkham Cobras to other buyers, who then shipped them from Poland to North America and one may have ended up in British Columbia?

Now I may have missed it in the Registry and I don't have it in front of me, but I don't remember that story being stated. I could be wrong, but I can't believe that Kirkham after investing a pot load of money in equipment and materials overseas wouldn't have the exclusive rights to all Cobras coming from the former jet factory.

However, maybe the President of Poland decided he wanted a Cobra and in an "off the books" transaction with the Polish workers, had them build a Cobra that Kirkham never knew about, and with "666" stamped in several places, which landed in British Columbia as the OP's car. I guess that scenario could have happened.

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

So, is Dugly trying to say that Kirkham, a smart business person, didn't have exclusive rights to that Polish factory for every single Cobra made and that the Polish factory may have sold "knockoff" Kirkham Cobras to other buyers, who then shipped them from Poland to North America and one may have ended up in British Columbia?

Exactly…what I have heard is that BEFORE the plant was purchased by the Kirkhams it was producing frames and bodies and that anyone who had the cash could arrange for a frame/body combination to be shipped to them.

If the Kirkhams found this out, it may have been the impetus for them to buy the factory and therefore have the exclusive rights to determine not only what would be built in that factory, but also to whom it could be sold. That would make sense to me if my business were to build the finest replicas available and I wanted to maintain that highly respected position…but until they were the owners I believe that the Polish company (who had been making airplanes before the Kirkhams became a customer of their services) would have believed that they had the right to sell their products to whomever they found willing to fork over the money. Only the Kirkham brothers know if they were astute enough to include an exclusivity clause in their contract with the Polish company…if, indeed, there was a contract at all. In many of those middle-European countries business is still conducted under much less formal agreements than a written contract…and not only in Europe, here in the US there are many who engage in business dealings without anything more than a handshake. One of my neighbors across the street has been building VERY expensive structures (homes, mostly) for the past 30 years and he says he's never signed any kind of a contract.

BTW---the "story" that appeared in the post above is EXACTLY the story I read regarding the manner in which Kirkham became a CUSTOMER of that factory…until they bought it. If I had to guess I'd say I probably read it on Kirkham's website…I have frequented their website as I am a great admirer of their products!

Sorry…I'm not a "conspiracy theorist" and don't think there was any conspiracy, just believe that the Polish factory could have (and DID) sell to customers other than the Kirkhams until they were bought out. No conspiracy….

This may be a replica for which we will never know the origins. I'd almost bet a paycheck the Kirkhams could clear up the mystery…but I doubt that they will. If I'm right about them not having an exclusivity arrangement with the factory before they purchased it, they would almost assuredly not want for that to be common knowledge (as is their right!!!)

Their silence has been deafening

Cheers!

Dugly

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

Sorry…I'm not a "conspiracy theorist" and don't think there was any conspiracy, just believe that the Polish factory could have (and DID) sell to customers other than the Kirkhams until they were bought out. No conspiracy….
Dugly

OK, not a conspiracy, but you believe the Polish factory sold Cobras to other buyers, not named Kirkham. Do you have any evidence? Who did you hear that from?

And yes, the Kirkham's could clear it up.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

No, I didn't miss the point, but I'm also not going to say that it could NEVER happen either. A conspiracy theory is a conspiracy theory.

In that brief snippet that I posted directly from the Kirkham website, "he (David Kirkham) forged some agreements" with the Polish factory to build Cobras. So, is Dugly trying to say that Kirkham, a smart business person, didn't have exclusive rights to that Polish factory for every single Cobra made and that the Polish factory may have sold "knockoff" Kirkham Cobras to other buyers, who then shipped them from Poland to North America and one may have ended up in British Columbia?

Now I may have missed it in the Registry and I don't have it in front of me, but I don't remember that story being stated. I could be wrong, but I can't believe that Kirkham after investing a pot load of money in equipment and materials overseas wouldn't have the exclusive rights to all Cobras coming from the former jet factory.

However, maybe the President of Poland decided he wanted a Cobra and in an "off the books" transaction with the Polish workers, had them build a Cobra that Kirkham never knew about, and with "666" stamped in several places, which landed in British Columbia as the OP's car. I guess that scenario could have happened.

See that is the kind of response that indicates that you did not COMPLETELY miss the point! Why didn't you say that in the first place?

The registry does not mention anything along the lines of Dugly's theory, but it does say that Kirkham originally dealt with a company called Geppard that failed and was taken over by a company called ZKA that was having problems too.

Of course Shelby claimed to own the 427 Cobra tooling instead of AC, but Shelby never bought AC. But the Kirkhams eventually bought out the Polish factory.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

See that is the kind of response that indicates that you did not COMPLETELY miss the point! Why didn't you say that in the first place?

The registry does not mention anything along the lines of Dugly's theory, but it does say that Kirkham originally dealt with a company called Geppard that failed and was taken over by a company called ZKA that was having problems too.

Of course Shelby claimed to own the 427 Cobra tooling instead of AC, but Shelby never bought AC. But the Kirkhams eventually bought out the Polish factory.

You're right, I really didn't think about a theory or that the Polish factory sold Cobras that weren't Kirkhams and that landed here in North America. Of course, there's zero evidence to prove that theory and that also would make the OP's Cobra a Unicorn and not a Kirkham.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You're right, I really didn't think about a theory or that the Polish factory sold Cobras that weren't Kirkhams and that landed here in North America. Of course, there's zero evidence to prove that theory and that also would make the OP's Cobra a Unicorn and not a Kirkham.

Well there you go. Unicorns have big noses and I have been sort of agreeing with your non-Kirkham nose on the OP's car.

However the more I look at Larry's seam pictures, the more I am thinking that this is a Kirkham body on a scratch builder's frame. Perhaps the scratch builder may have tweaked the nose somehow when attaching the body to the car. That would also go along with Bill thinking that the body is attached differently than how Kirkham would attach it to the frame.

So I think I will agree with you that this is a unicorn and not a Kirkham, but I think it does have a Kirkham body, just not a Kirkham frame.