Engine and gearbox - how hard to fit to car?

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I did the install myself on my ERA because I'm a bit anal and consider all my car buddies a bit ham fisted. Because of that I mounted the clutch/flywheel and dropped the engine straight in by itself. Then I bolted on the bell housing and installed the transmission from inside the interior. The only issue I had with this is that the Toploader is a heavy transmission and mounts considerably up and under the instrument panel/cowl. I've learned to work around this by cutting 4 lengths (roughly 10" long) of all thread to thread into the trans to bellhousing bolt holes. Then I slide the transmission on plywood covering the floor over to the center, stand straddling it and heft it up on to the 4 dowels. From that point on, if you got the disc aligned accurately ( I would test fit to engine while on the ground or hoist first), my transmission slides into place like closing the bolt on a bolt action rifle.

But if you have a helper you can install it all assembled with a go-slow approach.

Some good advice there Dan. We are on the same page with a number of things there.
I do recall from your build thread the idea of the long studs for aligning the gearbox, but I have no removable sheet metal to give me access from above; my tunnel has limited clearance to the Toploader, so engine and gearbox will have to go in as one unit.

The "go-slow approach" is the way to go.

Cheers,
Glen

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by Michael C Henry

....It is kind of like building a ship in a bottle.....Long chain fall hoists will pluck your dipstick right out and scratch the fenders.

Thanks Michael. As mentioned engine and g'box will need to be in one unit. It's the small tips like the errant dipstick that are hard to anticipate

Cheers,
Glen

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by xb-60

Some good advice there Dan. We are on the same page with a number of things there.
I do recall from your build thread the idea of the long studs for aligning the gearbox, but I have no removable sheet metal to give me access from above; my tunnel has limited clearance to the Toploader, so engine and gearbox will have to go in as one unit.

The "go-slow approach" is the way to go.

Cheers,
Glen

Ahh - that’s going to require a different approach then. Good luck.

[1795]

Glen,

When I have to pull the engine on my MGB race car the transmission has to come out with it and go back in with it attached, as like you car the tub is solid and there is nothing to remove. With the MGB I have to remove the radiator in order to gain enough room to tilt the engine/transmission combo in and the slowly change the angle and move the unit towards the rear of the car. You will be alternating at times between dropping the tail of the transmission and raising it as you slowly move the unit in place. This is where the leveler becomes very handy. Just crack the relief valve a little bit at a time until you just start to see some movement and then be ready to tighten quickly.

Good luck.

Jim

[DanEC]

I agree with Chicagowil about needing a good heavy duty hoist with a long reach and high capacity. Years ago I pulled a 427/4 speed altogether out of my 66 Corvette from the front and it was all it could do to reach it and snatch it out from the front. And this motor had aluminum heads and intake so not especially heavy. Had to clear everything out in front of the motor including the radiator support.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I agree with Chicagowil about needing a good heavy duty hoist with a long reach and high capacity. Years ago I pulled a 427/4 speed altogether out of my 66 Corvette from the front and it was all it could do to reach it and snatch it out from the front. And this motor had aluminum heads and intake so not especially heavy. Had to clear everything out in front of the motor including the radiator support.

Don't want to find myself in the situation where I'm 6" too short in my reach. I'll check my hoist (currently disassembled) and report back....

[patrickt]

In my almost 50 years of monkeying with cars, I have never pulled, nor dropped, an engine in to a car by my lonesome self. I think I could do an ERA by myself, but I still wouldn't try. I don't even want to have to dead lift the TKO myself, which is a hundred pounds. Have someone help you, even if it's your wife. Having that extra pair of hands to just guide the engine down on to the mounts, and not whack the side of the foot box or firewall, is really, really helpful. You've come this far, don't f*** it up now.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by patrickt

....Have someone help you, even if it's your wife......You've come this far, don't f*** it up now.

Pat, I usually agree with the logic of your arguments....but this one, I have issues with

Cheers!
Glen

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I agree with Chicagowil about needing a good heavy duty hoist with a long reach and high capacity. Years ago I pulled a 427/4 speed altogether out of my 66 Corvette from the front and it was all it could do to reach it and snatch it out from the front. And this motor had aluminum heads and intake so not especially heavy. Had to clear everything out in front of the motor including the radiator support.

Originally Posted by xb-60

Don't want to find myself in the situation where I'm 6" too short in my reach. I'll check my hoist (currently disassembled) and report back....

Lucky I checked.
With the boom extended to maximum reach (which de-rates the lift capacity from 1250kg to 500kg) I have a reach of around 1.2m (4ft) and I need around 1.5m (5ft) to approach from the front of the car. Approaching from the side, which some recommend, I have plenty of reach as well as the ability to easily adjust in fore/aft and transverse directions.
Better to establish that beforehand rather than on the day

Cheers!
Glen

[Michael C Henry]

I built this swing set 3" top ridge pipe 4 2 " leg pipes' two welded corner brackets that the ridge pipe and the four leg pipes slide into, Everything fir into the trunk of my 63 Galaxy. The legs were always too short. But I used concrete block to get the extra height. Even then I cheated . I cut the radiator cross support nd slid the engine and trans over the front bumper of the 63 I always had low garage ceilings. When I worked at Craig Taylor equipment they had rigid ( like a swing set0 with I beam bottoms on large metal castor wheels The chain fall hoist was on a trolley . That always stayed there on the shop . I could have used it if only my garage ceiling were higher. I borrowed a portable hydraulic engine hoist only to find it wouldn't work on lifting the engine out of the Cobra replica. My swing set With concrete blocks is what I used on my patio. I had a ratcheting Cyclone chain hoist hook as short as I could.. Not apro set up that's what I used.

[1795]

Glen,

If coming in from the side, the front has to be on jack stands and he wheels removed so as not to interfere with having to move the engine hoist aft as you settle the engine and transmission in place. While it can be done, the last time I did it by myself because I couldn't find anyone to help and it had to be done to get the car ready for the next event, it is a pain in the a@@ and you will use every curse word you know. There is a lot of periods of tilting the engine in one direction or the other and then moving the thing an inch or two and then tilting the engine in the opposite direction for an inch or two, etc..

With that I could be there to help you.

Jim

[xb-60]

Jim, you're welcome to come across to Adelaide to help me
The quite ridiculous thing is that the engine and gearbox would clear if installing it from underneath....but of course that is quite impractical!

Cheers,
Glen

[DanEC]

Probably but not a wild idea. Chrysler installed their motor, transmission, front K-frame and suspension assembly from underneath. I helped a friend install his Hemi engine and front sub-assembly in his 69 Roadrunner this way. He used his engine hoist to raise the front of the car up in the air and the whole engine/front end assembly rolled in under the car on a caster frame and the car front end was lowered over it until the K-member seated on the body. The main problem with this on a Cobra would be having some sort of bolted on frame extension to chain the engine hoist to - although the hoist could be tied to the front frame rails at the very front of the hood opening area, ahead of the engine position. Intriguing idea but I’m not sure a practical one.

[1795]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Probably but not a wild idea. Chrysler installed their motor, transmission, front K-frame and suspension assembly from underneath. I helped a friend install his Hemi engine and front sub-assembly in his 69 Roadrunner this way. He used his engine hoist to raise the front of the car up in the air and the whole engine/front end assembly rolled in under the car on a caster frame and the car front end was lowered over it until the K-member seated on the body. The main problem with this on a Cobra would be having some sort of bolted on frame extension to chain the engine hoist to - although the hoist could be tied to the front frame rails at the very front of the hood opening area, ahead of the engine position. Intriguing idea but I’m not sure a practical one.

Interesting idea Dan, I was going to jokingly suggest that he get several friends and have them carry the body and frame over the engine/transmission combo and then drop them in place. Not sue how wide the frame rails and motor mounts are on Glen's car and if they would clear the heads.

Jim

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by xb-60

All good points Tim....although I'm thinking maybe the less people, the better. Otherwise could be too easy to go too fast with too many opinions flying around. I respectfully add that unfortunately, my most likely helpers could accurately ID the front of the car from the back, but that would be their limit (that doesn't include immediate blood relatives). The red wine will be on hand. I do recall a picture of your car with a bottle of champagne on the air cleaner

Cheers,
Glen

Originally Posted by 1795

Interesting idea Dan, I was going to jokingly suggest that he get several friends and have them carry the body and frame over the engine/transmission combo and then drop them in place. Not sue how wide the frame rails and motor mounts are on Glen's car and if they would clear the heads.

Jim

Good point on the frame rail spacing. My ERAs are definitely too narrow even for a small block.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by Chicagowil

The leveler makes a huge difference. Without it you will struggle and most likely chip/scratch your paint. And measure how far a reach your hoist has to the center of your engine bay without it hitting the nose of the car. Some of the hoists do not have much reach.

When I installed my motor, I made sure I could reach beyond the center of the bay. I had the back end of the car on dollies with the front tires on the ground. That raised the rear about 3 inches but it also allowed me to shove the rear of the car around if needed instead of trying to wrestle the motor, trans and hoist around for final alignment.

I also place a trans dolly or a car dolly under the car that the trans tail can rest on so as I insert the motor/trans, I can place the tail on the movable dolly instead of it gouging into the pavement. Saves the tail of the trans and replaces the 2nd set of hands to get the tail in place. The trans dolly has the added advantage of being able to lift the tail as it gets in place. Go slow and inch it in, then down, then in again. Too often everyone wants to rush and that is when mistakes happen or someone gets hurt!

A 2nd set of hands are a big help. But I remove/install my motors by myself (at 67 yrs old). Go slow and let the lift do the work. Make sure you test how the release valve works (how fast it will drop with the load) before you are over the car, Best to know before you have it over a fender or nose and when you go to release it to slowly lower the load and it drops! Scares the hell out of you at best!




Thom

hard to believe that will go in!

[xb-60]

Thanks for the comments Dan and Jim.

I was awake last night thinking about whether it was just a wild, stupid idea to install from underneath. Now I'm thinking that it is not only do-able, but in my particular case, a no-brainer to seriously contemplate going that way.

I had already done some rough measurements a couple of days ago, prompting my comment yesterday.

So....went out this morning for more accurate measurements:
- Widest point on the engine is at the edges of the rocker covers….465mm (18.3”)
- Available space at engine mount pads….540mm (21.26”) with mounts removed (shown fitted in pic.)
- Available space at forward end of chassis/engine area (refer pic.)….515mm (20.27”)

....and here's the pic. of the empty engine bay:




Thoughts?

Cheers,
Glen

[t walgamuth]

Looks tight.

[1795]

Glen,

How easy would it be to replace the engine mounts with the engine in the bay? How much room would you have with one motor mount removed? If there will be enough room it might be easier to hook the engine up to one mount, rotate it upwards, install the second mount and then lower the engine back into place. I just wonder hw easy it will be to have the engine in the bay with no motor mounts in place and then had to install them and line things up. Maybe it is not that big of a deal, except how easy will it be to install both motor mounts from above? While the mounting bolt to the engine block through the mount can be done from above, I am not sure if you can install the mounts to the frame from above with the engine in place. I had to change out my motor mounts because they were the wrong ones and was able to disconnect one at a time, rotate the engine and install the new mounts. From what I recall, I had to do this working from above and below the engine.

What do you think Dan?

Jim

[DanEC]

Well, I can tell you shoe-horning a 426 Hemi into an engine bay from underneath is extremely tight as that thing is really big. But Chrysler made it possible by attaching the lower suspension arm to the K-member which is part of the engine/transmission/k-member that goes in from underneath at once - something we don't have the advantage of.

Your frame opening does look pretty open and your dimensions seem to show 2 - 3 inches to clear which could be enough going really slow. The valve covers could probably be left off if that reduces width any - may not on a small block. Is the area the transmission fits also open? Does it have a bolt in cross-member or does the transmission tail have to slide in over a cross member? If the latter that might be an issue as to do this by raising the front of the car, a mid-point cross member will be pretty high and the transmission tail will be pretty low. If the body/frame were put on a 2-post lift where it sits level and is lowered over the engine then the tail of the transmission could be raised with a jack at some point and the motor/trans assembly rolled back until the engine is in position.

Not sure about the mounts - looks like they would have to come out and go in after at least the heads are up into the engine bay. Getting to them to bolt in place might be an issue.

What manufacturer Cobra is this by the way?