Club Cobra Gas - N Exhaust  

Go Back   Club Cobra > Cobra Talk Areas > ALL COBRA TALK

Welcome to Club Cobra!  The World's largest non biased Shelby Cobra related site!

  •  » Representation from nearly all Cobra/Daytona/GT40 manufacturers
  •  » Help from all over the world for your questions
  •  » Build logs for you and all members
  •  » Blogs
  •  » Image Gallery
  •  » Many thousands of members and nearly 1 million posts! 

YES! I want to register an account for free right now!  p.s.: For registered members this ad will NOT show

Nevada Classics
Keith Craft Racing
Main Menu
Module Jump:
Nevada Classics
Nevada Classics
Keith Craft Racing
Advertise at CC
Banner Ad Rates
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
August 2022
S M T W T F S
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31      

Kirkham Motorsports

Like Tree2Likes
  • 1 Post By BJ's Snake
  • 1 Post By bobcowan

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 04:33 AM
mrmustang's Avatar
CC Member/Contributor
Visit my Photo Gallery
Gold Star Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Greenville, SC
Cobra Make, Engine: 70 Shelby ragtop,SPF 289 roadster,ERA-FIA, mystery Ford powered 2dr convertible
Posts: 12,093
Not Ranked     
Default Let's talk 8 stack style injection

Let's talk 8 stack style injection:

I've been speaking with Jim Inglese recently about upgrading the current Demon carb on ERA 2080 to something like this:

Vintage look stack injection is on the left, original weber setup on the right:


Anybody use this on their car yet? Pros, cons, issues, praise, have at it.


Bill S.
__________________
Instead of being part of the problem, be part of a successful solution.

First time Cobra buyers-READ THIS
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 05:56 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 2
Not Ranked     
Default

So I purchased the original setup from Jim a number of years ago, and it is an absolute show stopper at the cruise ins and shows. I had a few setup issues at the start but Jim is a wealth of knowledge and we were able to sort it out.
My primary issue was a low fuel level in the bowls and I had to reset the floats to their correct levels. After that they became very responsive to the setting of the correct jet holder air bleed hole size.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 08:04 AM
C5GTO's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Prescott, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Classic Roadsters
Posts: 188
Not Ranked     
Thumbs up

I'm sold on the concept of 8 stack injection! I purchased a unit from Jim for my Lambo Miura project ( https://www.gt40s.com/threads/modern-day-miura.54786/ ) that will go on a Gen 2 Coyote motor. I think seeing the throttle bodies out the rear window and when the rear clamshell is up is key to the visual aspect of the car. I can't contribute any firsthand experience at this time as the project isn't to a running state yet. I'm hopeful the installation, setup, and sorting out process goes smoothly but realistically, I expect a few bumps along the way. My recent home move will add at least a year to the Miura project schedule as I need to build a garage prior to any serious work on the car. You might want to post a similar question on the GT40 forum as that's another group where Weber carbs are in use on a V8 platform.

I do hope to hear lots of first hand experience replies to your inquiry so I too can benefit from the 8 stack EFI lessons learned out there.
__________________
Thanks,
Joel Heinke (early 90's CRL Cobra)
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 08:45 AM
RUFdriver's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Houston, Tx
Cobra Make, Engine: UCC GT 427
Posts: 204
Not Ranked     
Default

The best IMO.
https://kinsler.com/Shop/
Or for a lot less money…
https://www.borlainduction.com/ford-...ttle-body-kits

Last edited by RUFdriver; 07-02-2022 at 09:09 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 09:18 AM
twobjshelbys's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Cobra Make, Engine: Shelby CSX4005LA, Roush 427IR
Posts: 4,830
Not Ranked     
Default

InI had the Roush 427IR engine which had the faux 8-stack. They paired it with an Accel fuel injection controller which they had only partially completed the tuning process (it didn't work at altitude). It was a MAF system (the MAF sat in one of the trumpets). After my tuner figured out that the altitude table had not been populated and he fixed it, it ran great. Also, O2 sensor placement is critical. My system had one bung in one header tube but they placed it in the passenger side pipe just after the 4-tube downstep. This placement was subject to getting air backflow at low idle so I ended up raising idle to about 1000RPM and it ran better but that engine also has a lopey cam which contributed.

One downside was that the interlocking of the mechanical linkages can slip and cause one or more banks to be out of adjustment. Get yourself one of the vacuum adjustment tools.

The FI system can be very picky on these. They don't behave like a normal induction since each cylinder is essentially its own throttle body. As each blade opens the fuel flow and air flow changes. The net is that the fuel flow at low RPM (less throttle position sensor) results in a fuel charge with little air turbulance to mix air/fuel and results in rich operation until the throttle blades open to about 1/3. A self learning FI controller can probably handle this but if you have a manual one you should be aware of this difference by leaning it out a little at lower rpm low tps conditions

So the robustness depends on which fuel injection controller you use.

The eye appeal of the 8 stack is unquestionable.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony
CSX4005LA

Last edited by twobjshelbys; 07-03-2022 at 12:34 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 09:47 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cape Town, WC
Cobra Make, Engine: Shamrock
Posts: 349
Not Ranked     
Default

I just love those - I would go with the fuel injection setup for tune-ability but it will then need changes to the fuel system. The only thing I really don't like about these systems is the lack of air filtration which on a regularly used medium mileage car could lead to excessive engine wear.

I have seen the gauze air strainers used on the trumpets to stop large objects such as road grit etc. from entering the engine but creates significant losses in breathability and hence power. Any way a 1/8"th or 1/16"th inch stone would still pass through this and wouldn't do the engine much good.

I went a similar route with my engine using a cross ram for four Webers but without the Webers but with long trumpets into two plenums with two throttle bodies and air filters. It works great but due to fitting too small a fuel pump and/or too small a suction pipe from the swirl tank to the pump it starts to run out of fuel pressure at 5000 RPM. Still have to sort that out but it makes great power up to 5000 RPM and is very driveable and cruise at 14.7:1 AF ratio and accelerates at 13:1..

I use air filters because my normal route takes me through significant sections of wind blown beach sand where the sand blows right over the car for about a hundred yards at an average of every alternate trip in summer.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 10:13 AM
spdbrake's Avatar
CC Member/Contributor
Visit my Photo Gallery
Gold Star Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Lyman, SC
Cobra Make, Engine: BDR #53
Posts: 1,378
Not Ranked     
Default

Bill,

This shop has been around for quite awhile, does 8-stack installs and remote tuning support, also has a great reputation.

Close to 2 hrs away from you in Concord NC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MHlf1fF7Ow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCbT6gMcik
https://www.prestigemoto.com/hardcor...o-gallery.html
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1...WcQoip6BAhMEAM

Last edited by spdbrake; 07-02-2022 at 10:43 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 11:50 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 32
Not Ranked     
Default

I wish a stack injection system was available for the Gen 3 Coyote. I'd love to have one put on my car while it's being built.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 12:17 PM
twobjshelbys's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Cobra Make, Engine: Shelby CSX4005LA, Roush 427IR
Posts: 4,830
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake2998 View Post
I just love those - I would go with the fuel injection setup for tune-ability but it will then need changes to the fuel system. The only thing I really don't like about these systems is the lack of air filtration which on a regularly used medium mileage car could lead to excessive engine wear.

I have seen the gauze air strainers used on the trumpets to stop large objects such as road grit etc. from entering the engine but creates significant losses in breathability and hence power. Any way a 1/8"th or 1/16"th inch stone would still pass through this and wouldn't do the engine much good.

I went a similar route with my engine using a cross ram for four Webers but without the Webers but with long trumpets into two plenums with two throttle bodies and air filters. It works great but due to fitting too small a fuel pump and/or too small a suction pipe from the swirl tank to the pump it starts to run out of fuel pressure at 5000 RPM. Still have to sort that out but it makes great power up to 5000 RPM and is very driveable and cruise at 14.7:1 AF ratio and accelerates at 13:1..

I use air filters because my normal route takes me through significant sections of wind blown beach sand where the sand blows right over the car for about a hundred yards at an average of every alternate trip in summer.
My trumpets had individual K&N filters on them. The tune definitely noticed the difference when they were present or absent. As I mentioned earlier about the injector and throttle body air flow I think the filters helped "blend" the air better.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony
CSX4005LA
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 12:21 PM
twobjshelbys's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Cobra Make, Engine: Shelby CSX4005LA, Roush 427IR
Posts: 4,830
Not Ranked     
Default

But let me ask you, Why?

You'll probably be directed to one of the non-MAF systems because the MAF is simply "too hard to do". (Although Roush figured it out.)

If you do one of the direct mappings you've essentially spent a boatload on a fuel injected 8-stack clone hardware, plus the fuel injection controller, and probably some additional fuel return line work.

Is it really worth it to get a fuel injected clone vs. just getting real carb'd Webers???
__________________
Cheers,
Tony
CSX4005LA
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 12:32 PM
Senile Club Cobra Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Buffalo, NY USA, NY
Cobra Make, Engine: Time Machines Motorsports LLC- Superformance Dealer
Posts: 4,307
Not Ranked     
Default

Bill,

We have a couple of customers with Jim's EFI system and they are happy with it. Miss the 289 yet?
__________________
"I'm high all right, but on the real thing....powerful gasoline and a clean windshield..."

http://www.timemachinesauto.com/
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 12:37 PM
jknich's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SEQUIM, WA
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 115
Not Ranked     
Default

Coyote with stack injection:

https://www.streetmusclemag.com/news...uel-injection/
__________________
Jim Nichols
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 01:02 PM
mrmustang's Avatar
CC Member/Contributor
Visit my Photo Gallery
Gold Star Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Greenville, SC
Cobra Make, Engine: 70 Shelby ragtop,SPF 289 roadster,ERA-FIA, mystery Ford powered 2dr convertible
Posts: 12,093
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark IV View Post
Bill,

We have a couple of customers with Jim's EFI system and they are happy with it. Miss the 289 yet?
I do, after taking the FIA out for a nice 65 mile ride in the country, SWMBO does not .


Bill S.

PS: The "want" for what Steve Sunshine just posted is greater than both, however, my wallet is not inline with it's worth.
__________________
Instead of being part of the problem, be part of a successful solution.

First time Cobra buyers-READ THIS
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2022, 10:42 PM
eschaider's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Gilroy, CA
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF 2291, Whipple Blown & Injected 4.6
Posts: 2,013
Not Ranked     
Default

Bill,

A couple of quick thoughts ...

When you think of the EFI route, break the equipment into two broad categories. Category 1 would be the air valves and intake manifold. As you already know, Jim Inglese is the go-to source for this stuff. Category 2 is the actual EFI controller. There are many excellent choices from the pricey $8-$10K Motec systems down through a range of alternatives that are comparably featured and considerably more economically priced.

I would recommend one that most people overlook because they don't want to take the 'Heathkit' build-it-yourself approach that the firm used for several decades, even up to today. The firm is MegaSquirt and the EFI system is available factory manufactured with a lifetime warranty today from DIYAutoTune <= clickable.

They offer what they call a Plug-n-Play version that pretty closely resembles a poor man's Motec or Haltech EFI system. It is the one I linked to above. The system comes with a base tune that will get you well on your way to a driveable vehicle and an excellent series of Youtube how-to-tune videos they and others have done that will wisk away the black art sort of reputation tuning has.

The price, including the hardware, tuning software, and data logging software, is $1500. It uses all Ford sensors out of the box and gives you the option of using any sensors your heart desires. The connector on the ECU is OEM Ford which means you can use an OEM engine wiring harness and under-dash harness to the OEM Ford ECU — and everything just plugs together!

The system supports any injectors, ignition coils, or sensors your heart desires. It also has a range of excellent 'oh by the way' features built in that you can turn on or off as you choose. Some of those features include things like multiple programmable engine fail safes, flex fuel capability, variable cam timing (if your engine choice supports it), drive by wire and a very nice a blue tooth wireless capability, to name just a few. The wireless bluetooth capability for tuning is pretty much like when we no longer needed ethernet cables to get online with our computers.

Extremely complete EFI, very nice options, OEM wiring harness compatible, stunningly easy install, first start and follow on programming. BTW it supports all three fueling models Alpha-N, Speed Density and MAF (mass air flow) based. For the eight-stack Weber look-a-like air valves, you will want to use the Speed Density, which is also the format the base tune comes set up for.

Check them out, I think you'll like what you see.
__________________
.


Help them do what they would have done if they had known what they could do
.

Last edited by eschaider; 07-02-2022 at 11:33 PM.. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2022, 10:06 PM
BJ's Snake's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Queanbeyan, NSW
Cobra Make, Engine: AP 289 USRRC #98 The Ken Miles Tribute Car
Posts: 1,128
Not Ranked     
Default

Have a look at the EFI Jenvey UK system as well.
I put this on my 331 stroker and am very impressed.
Not cheap but I like the look and performs well.

xb-60 likes this.
__________________
289 FIA Cobras RULE!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2022, 04:49 PM
bobcowan's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Cobra Make, Engine: Backdraft, supercharged Coyote
Posts: 2,370
Not Ranked     
Default

Properly done, they are the best looking system in any jewelry box. There are some things to keep in mind.

EFI TB's can be built to look exactly like the carbs. Only a really sharp eye will see the difference. BUT, EFI is so much easier to tune, and more fun to drive. Especially here in the Rocky mountains. If it's a show car, it doesn't really matter. But if you actually enjoy driving the car, get EFI.

For a max effort race engine, IR systems can limit your power, because they can limit air flow. Not a big deal to most people.

The engine needs to match the IR intake system. You can't just slap the manifold on any engine and expect it to work. Especially the heads and cam. Make sure the components match.

Accurate linkage is critical. I messed with mine for a long time. Eventually, I threw out the manufacturers linkage, and built my own. After that, it was much easier to balance and tune.

IMO, the real goal with stacks is looks. I think they are the best looking fuel delivery system in any jewelry box. Pay careful attention to individual components, and make sure they match your goals.

Picking the right computer is more important than picking the right hardware.





These "Tea Strainer" filters cost me 100hp on the dyno.

eschaider likes this.
__________________
.boB "Iron Man"
NASA Rocky Mountain TTU #42
www.RacingtheExocet.com
BDR #1642 - Supercharged Coyote, 6 speed Auto

Last edited by bobcowan; 07-05-2022 at 03:04 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2022, 07:06 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 80
Not Ranked     
Default

I was researching EFI stack injection as well. Most of the ones I was looking into have been mentioned in this thread.
Jim Inglese makes a very accurate period correct system if that is what you shooting for. Like mentioned he is very knowledgeable and can build a system specific to your engine.

Borla makes a great plug an play system that is more "universal". I believe it uses the Fast EFI system.

Kinsler is probably one of the more expensive systems but it is literally built to your engine, driving style.....more of a professional motorsports type application.

With EFI its usually best to chose a system that is very user friendly or that a trusted local tuner is familiar with. Not all EFI systems are alike and when it comes to ITB system one tune DOES NOT FIT ALL...lol.

I ended up going with the Kinsler system for my 363 sbf. I ordered it in Feb of 2022....hopefully it will ship out here soon. Like I said, they are built specific to your application, made to order. I am only getting the intake manifold, efi rails, MAP system, TPS, throttle linkage...that will set you back $7500. I still need to get the efi system...(I am already familiar with fueltech so I am using it), fuel injectors. Basically for a complete plug n play system from them would be around $11k.

It really all boils down to, you going for looks or performance or both. I plan on racing a good bit so I went for performance....but it is going to look pretty damn cool too...lol.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubcobra.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Shelby American, any other replica manufacturer, Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by clubcobra.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Ford Motor Company, or Shelby American or any other manufacturer unless expressly noted by that entity. "Cobra" and the Cobra logo are registered trademarks for Ford Motor Co., Inc. clubcobra.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting clubcobra.com. For full policy documentation refer to the following link: CC Policy
Links monetized by VigLink