Arntz-Butlers or Butlers---how do they stack up?

[Fred Douglass]

I have recently run across two perfect Butlers---and am having serious second thoughts about an SPF. One of the main motivations in considering the Butlers is that they would constitute a significant savings over a new SPF. I would like to hear from Butler owners, largely about the unique merits and "plusses" these cars offer. I know it can get sticky if you praise your type of car at the expense of those of other Club members, so don't take the risk. I would like to know about such things as: wheels, tires, engine placement, frame strength, Jaguar IRS, front suspension, comfort, quirks, handling, negative aspects, etc.
Any helpful comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[Jamo]

Fred
So let me get this straight. You want me to bend over and invite it?

[BT SNAKE]

Fred,
I don't know much about the things you asked but
I have had a chance to look at a butller upclose. I think
it is one of the best laid out frames I have seen. The
weight may be slightly higher than other cobras but
the safety factor has got to be better than most. I was really impressed at how well the passenger-driver compartment was
constructed. You keep thinking about all the welll placed
bracing and those nifty inner door gaurds. The only thing
I would do differently is put outboard disc brakes or
fit in a corvette rear end. The car is well engineered in my
opinion. Also if you have the video "Bitten by the snake",
there is a segment on the Butler(G&S) that is pretty informative.

Hersh

[Fred Douglass]

No, not at all, Jamo! See my sentence #4, above. What I wanted was data---such as wheel type, size, track (as opposed to wheelbase)---etc. I was being serious; I think the Butlers look great, if a little smaller than ERAs and SPFs. And since the sad demise of the body-molds, rara avi, indeed. I do NOT want you to incur the wrath of others, so if that's the problem---I understand. If you do want to send some data, it would help. Heck, send it e-mail-wise: DouglassF@aol.com. Anything you have by way of commentary re Butlers would be great.

Thanks,

[Jamo]

Just teasing--sort of....

As BT points out, the car is about stength--the frame is beefy, there are crossbraces all over the darn place, when you slam the door--it slams! No cowl shake--none. The fibreglass is very thick and strong. Mine is twenty years old and there's very little spider-webbing (just around the rollbar holes). It is a heavy car.

My front-end needs some work (per DV), and it's generally a bit slow for autocross, but perfect for track and the road. The Jag rear came with extra torsion bars to the rear/very tough. I put XJS brakes back there to increase stopping power.

The footwells are long, though narrow due to the setback. Saw a BB in an Arntz at Spring Fling, and Monster in the bay area also runs a BB if that's a consideration.

Rally Snake has an Arntz with one of Butler's tops--he rallys that thing, which demands a bit of toughness. Parts--that would be a problem, although the suspension is MGB/Jag--not that hard to find stuff.

Downsides--the footbox, as mentioned above, is a bit narrow--but you can stretch out like in a Vette.

As always--depends on the particular car and how well it was kept up. Mine was regularly serviced by Paul Bennett through most of its life before I bought it a few years ago. BTW--go to my gallery. I have some pages of a comparison between an original and an Arntz from SCG which might be of some interest to you.

Hope this helps.

[decooney]

Fred, just for some feedback...
I've driven two Butlers, (one I wanted to buy way back, and a friend's car recently), and I like them alot. I am comparing to Unique's and ERAs, and have yet to drive a SuperF, but know of them fairly well. A first driving impression of the Butler is it sits low from the outside and sitting within it, with great ground clearance too; go figure. The car's weight seems to almost pivot from the center when driving it, maybe because of the engine sitting back so far, but yet there is still leg room. One Butler I drove had a 351W, and the other had a small block Chevy just like Ron Butler intended it. It seems Rob Butler engineered a purpose built car with this Cobra, and with good reason. There are articles comparing the 350 Chevy Traco Engineering Bulter built car with the original 427 Cobra that make for interesting reading for comparison and debate by many. I like Ford's in Cobras, but the Butler does well with a SBC in it too - a secret combo to some. One thing to mention about my friend's current Butler car is the incredible leg room. The foot boxes are very deep, and the adjustable pedals are nice. The chassis is incredible. It's worth looking at it underneath, with the big X brace under there and all. Check for MGB front suspension or coilover setups, and hopefully some sort of upgrade to Alden's or some other adjustable coilover setup. My buddies car has the Jag/IRS in the rear as typical, and it has BBS racing wheels on it with 15x10 in the front and 15x12 in the rear - meats! His car has a nice THICK fiberglass body and the rear wheel wells were reflared with a wide-hip look that made the car look more correct in comparison to other Butler/Arntz I've seen with no rear flare to it. Also, some of the bodies were bonded to the chassis, which makes it a solid car too. If you don't mind a little wrenching to get a used Butler sorted out (if needed) to me the base foundation of the car is really good, and they are fun to drive. It could be very fast on the track as well if set up correctly, but fun on the street too. I like Uniques, ERAs, SuperF's and others as well. I heard G&K Motorsports (the Co. Ron sold to) is no longer, but there are a few good used ones out there... I believe the Butler/Arntz is really worth considering too if the price is right, IMHO. Good Luck. Duane

[Turk]

Do ALL Buttler's have the same set-back as Jamo's car?
Can't some of that set-back be traded for larger and deeper footboxes?

TURK

[Jamo]

Turk
Actually, the footboxes in my car are much deeper then yours or Pats--it's the width, and that really can't be made bigger due to engine location. Course--remember, I wear 13 EE shoes, and I still can do ok unless someone's taking me through Death Valley...

Duane--the Chevy bent is something that started with Steve Arntz. The article you mention is the one I referred Fred to--it's in my gallery. The BBS wheels are also something attributable to Arntz--I just recently replaced the gold ones one my car had--somewhat dated 80s look. Also--that was G&S Motorsports--they screwed Ron pretty good.

[Jeff Frigo]

Fred:

I understand thst they can cary a lot of weight.

[Monster]

I heard my name come up so here is my take on things having built my "Arntz/Bennett/Butler/GS motorsports"Cobra. The preceding is the lineage and also the contributing parts producers of my car. I built the car from a 60-70% complete roller. As Jamo has mentioned I have a BB FE which adds to the weight of the car. The steering and front suspension is MGB (if you are looking at a Butler built car check to see if it has the upgraded A-arms and shocks NOT THE STANDARD MGB PARTS) a 7/8 anti-sway bar which greatly improved the handling. I don't have rear bars but did add Alden shocks which also helped the handling. I have Trigo's 7 1/2 with 275/50/15 up front and 9 1/2 275/60/15 in the rear. As mentioned the car is solidly built. If you would like some of the negitives in my opinion here goes:

The setback of the engine is probably a positive and a negitive: it provides a nearly 50/50 center of gravity but also cramps the drivers side footbox. Also you must insolate both foot boxes unless you plan on driving in -30F and need the heat. Getting to the plugs is a challenge and I have been told that you can take the engine out without removing the body but it would be tough to get at some of the bolts.

The only other issue is when other cobra owners get together and start discussing the virtues of SPF or FF you really don't have much to relate to and at times you do get a currious response when someone asks "what kit is that" however, of some comfort is that you can state its "an original" since Arntz (Butler) was the first replica mfg. that makes it an "original replica" sort of like a CSX4000 (sorry,I couldn't resist)

good luck,
Mike "monster"

The views stated are solely those of the author and are presented for the enjoyment of most members. Any resemblance to original products is purely intensional and should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Fred Douglass]

Jamo, BT, Decooney, Turk, Monster:

Thanks, this is very helpful. I appreciate your time and advice.

Jeff:

QQQQ LOL

Chow,

[Back in Black]

Was designed/modified from an Arntz/Butler cobra, to look like the Stallion cobras of the 70's. The West Coast is the sturdiest of the cobra type cars, and this says a lot about it's parent, the Arntz!

[Jamo]

Good point Monster made about insulation--Bennett installed some heavy duty stuff under the wool carpets in the early 90s that the original owner told me made all the difference in the world. Also good point about the front end--mine is the strengthened type--didn't know some were built with stock MGB.

As to discussions around the parking lot--maybe we need to create a Significantly Setback Ones group.

{No Jeffy--that little snipit was not lost one me! Bite me! Actually says alot for their strength if it can carry my fat butt.}

[Fred Douglass]

Jamo-Jeff,
Methinks Jeff's torpedo was aimed at ME---but I'll prove HIM wrong---cut to my gallery and me in my mini-yacht (the only boat I'll be able to afford, once I buy the wife-chum M3 (used) and the SPFutler). Does that photo prove Archimedes was wrong-o or what?
Jeff, decoded my brief massage yet? Ar-ar-ar.
Chow,

[Jamo]

Saw your rubber ducky pic...

OK--we'll both FRAG Frigo just to make sure we cover all the bases...

[Jeff Frigo]

Torpedo was aimed at Jamo, but if the car (I mean shoe) fits, then wear it.

Anytime I get a large person that wants to go for a ride and says he wont fit, I just show them Jamo.

Fred: Small minds have problems remembering what they did yesterday yet alone decode a message. I have not figured it out, need help.

You guys know that I am only joking. If I was serious, I wouldn't add any smiles.

[Fred Douglass]

Jeffie, me boy:
You know we love ye, lad. Your stuff is as good as anyone's. Hint on code: Count 'em and don't pluralize em...again, in jest. If you glance at my gallery and my "yacht of last resort" (2 photos) you'll see that I didn't need to smoke a bale to be paranoid about "weightist" yuma.......
Cheers, and....you do know the one about the Foo Bird, d'ye not?

Chowder,

[Jamo]

Well thanks for pointing that out Jeff--you miserable little bas......!

[Monster]

I've attached a picture of my engine compartment so that you can see how the additional setback places the engine. The wiper wheelhouses are just about at the firewall, so as you can see there isn't much room. One thing that I omitted was that with the set back I have been limited to a round dropped air cleaner (which I really don't like but I'm stuck with for now). Early Arntz actually had a cowl cutout attached to the hood for Chevy applications for access to the distributor.



BTW: no bites on my previous CSX comment, good, I'm glad to see that most of us have found our sense of humor and aren't taking things so seriously.

take care,
Mike 'monster'

[Jamo]

Monster
Gee--looks sort of like mine except there must not be any dirt where you live.

Your engine compartment panels look like mine--are they painted or did someone do a nearly impossible job with aluminum?