Brand Name Parts

[JAC]

Just curious as to what people expect when they order a kit.
If the web site or brochure states a specific brand, like Ididit, Zoom, Flaming River, Moto Lita, MSD, Etc. do you expect those brand name parts or is ok to get something else? If the off brand part you receive doesn't fit should you be expected to modify it to fit or modify the part it is suppose to fit? If you ordered a package because it states that it comes with a Moto Lita steering wheel or a Zoom clutch, would you expect anything else? If you get something else and it doesn't fit even if they have sold hundreds of them, should it be replaced with the brand name part you thought you were getting?

Does customer service mean anything anymore?

I just wanted to get some of your oppinions on this.
Thanks

[tcrist]

Yes, you should get what is advertised. If you are talking about CRII, I have run across the same issue. Mine is when I bought my motor. As per the the picture the motor was to have the black cobra valve covers. It came with the polished alum ones. When I called and talked to pete he said that they would order and send me the correct ones. 7-8 months later I finally received them. I was told that they were on back order from Ford. Other than that the only other problem was getting parts that fit correctly ( my guess is that my CR is a CR LTD early 90's. I figure that the parts they sell now fit the cars that they build now). The last thing is INSTRUCTIONS. I have not gotten any instructions with anything that I have bought through CRII. That might be the standard with all kit manufactures, I don't know. Don even sent me some frame brackets that the previous owner cut off and threw away,for free. Even though I did not purchase my CR through him. Other than these items (which Don & Pete have taken care of) I am happy with CRII.

Terry

[JAC]

Maybe the standards should be raised!!

Maybe my car isn't a Classic Roadster?

Maybe it's a Classik Rodster.

[tcrist]

If that is the standard, then yes it should be changed.
If your car isn't as CR then maybe you should change your profile.
Maybe thats what I get for thinking that what you have in your profile is what you own. I know you wern't happy with CRII a few months back and I believe that I defended you for not getting your parts that you ordered in a timely fashon. I won't make that mistake again.

[JAC]

NO, My car is a classic I was just being sarcastic.
When I received my rack It was packaged in a Flaming River box. It is not a Flaming River rack, this was confirmed by the tech guy at Flaming River.
So if someone packages a rack in a Flaming River box and it is not a Flaming River rack, Is that intent for fraud or what?

[JAC]

I was told by Don that he would support me in my build 100% and that if I wasn't satisfied with any part he would happily replace it. My pinion shaft on the rack is undersize. I asked him to exchange it. No luck. Headers don't fit right. No help. He doesn't believe we know what we are doing. The guy building my car has a 1999 Classic Roadster he built and painted himself. The car has won several trophies, that is why he is building mine. He said that he never had any of the issues we are having now.
Glad your happy with your car. Hope to enjoy mine someday.
By the way, Thanks for supporting me in that about my parts, you were the only one that seemed to get it.
Just wish customer service meant something these days.
Jerry

[tcrist]

My mistake, I thought you wer trying to be a smart a$$. My misunderstanding. I appoligize for the remarks.
I guess that I am lucky in the case that so far CRII has fixed my issues. I wish that they would be up front and fix yours. If they told you that it was a Flaming River rack and it came in a Flaming River box the you betcha it should be a Flaming River rack and it should be the correct one. Thats for sure. When I bought my tubular A arms and coil over shock kit for the front and rear, it came loosely packed in a Dell computer box. The shocks and springs came dissassembled. No damage so I figure that it is ok. But like I said before, I wish some instructions would come along with their shipments.

Terry

[dscott]

I do my best to give the parts that we state in the lit. but sometimes I have to substitute if one brand isn't available at the time. I actually pay more for the non-flaming river racks. Those racks are identical to the Flaming River. I also have to buy them 10 at a time. I sometimes here that so and so has them in stock just buy one there. My costs and profits are all based on buying in quantity so I can keep the kit cost at a competitive price. The price of our kit is the same as it was in 1990!

JAC, you just sent me an e-mail describing the problems you have on Monday. The rack shaft is not undersize. That is the size they make them. I never told you I would not replace the rack. I simply asked you a few questions. I have never refused to help you with a problem or send you a replacement if necessary. The statements you are making are not true. The u-joint is split so it can be tightened to fit the shaft. The header problem you have will be taken care of. If you need a new header or sidepipe we will send it to you. I do need some time to discuss the issue and see if it can be resolved before I simply ship new parts to you. The sidepipes cost about $100 to ship. I can't tell you how many times I have replaced parts, paid shipping both ways only to find there is nothing wrong. I am supposed to trust that you will ship parts back to me at my expense only after you receive the new ones. Your contract states that any defective part is to be sent back to us so we can determine if it needs replacement, repair, etc. If I wanted to be an ass I could force the issue but I don't. I just had a customer tell me that his headers were totally wrong, bad angles, hitting the fender liners, sidepipes won't bolt up, etc. The issue was not bad parts but wrong motor mount installation. After correcting them the headers and sidepipes fit fine. I can't determine what level of skill people have when building a car. Everyone thinks they can build them.

I wish I could make every car and part fit perfectly but I can't Everything we make in steel is done in a jig. It is possible that things don't fit exactly as desired. I have an awesome welder/fabricator but he's not perfect, things can change and happen. Why do you insist on making false statements? I have never refused a call or helped you with any problem. It's obvious you don't like the company.

I would also like to include instructions for everything we sell but I haven't. I am always working on getting the proper instruction manuals for every product we sell. I have been working on a new build manual for quite some time. At this time we stock over 12,000 parts for different vehicles that we build or support. If we don't include instructions you can call for support and we will tell you how to install.

I also can't believe that you would question the box that we send parts in. Does that really matter. I'm not trying to mislead anyone on anything. The larger boxes I use can cost me $10 or more. This is a cost along with shipping that you never get charged if we are replacing a part. If I have a good box left from something I use it.

I have never refused you any customer service. Did you mention anywhere that we gave you a dash and a cover for your car for free the last time you were here? Is that bad customer service? When have I ever refused to help you? Is 3 days to resolve a problem unreasonable? What would you like me to do? I have read all the bad things you state on this site about us. Did you ever think to mention the problems that we helped you with or the issues that turn out to not be our fault? You seem insistant on bad mouthing us and I can't stop you from doing that. I think we are very good at customer service.

If I really wanted to be an ass I could just refuse to take any calls from you and stop all support. I don't have to give support on my products forever if I don't want to. I am still supporting product all the way back to 1978. I never sold anything until 2003. My phone bills are outrageous because everyone uses the toll free number for product that was never bought from us. We still support them. At this point I really don't care if you continue to badmouth us because I can't do anything about it. I have been completely cordial and friendly to you even though you continue to make posts like this one. Since it makes no difference to you what we do or what help we give then maybe it's time to break the relationship and you can find someone else to call. It's too bad it has to come to this but we sold you bad product, refuse to help you, don't give any customer support, misled you, lied to you, ship items in "funny boxes" and in general are just a bad company. On the other hand if you would stop posting lies such as this one then perhaps we can continue to support you. Your call.
Don

[hamster427]

Since I have been involved in this saga from the beginning, it is time for me to give my 2 cents worth. #1 if you advertise your kit with a certain brand part it BETTER include it. When people make a purchase this substantial they look for name brand parts that have a solid reputation. They spend alot of hard earned money and they want their money's worth. If you are going to substitute on a whim, then you should use a more generic term, ie: a mustang 2 rack and pinion instead of a Flaming River rack and pinion, a Grip force clutch instead of Zoom, because we would have deleted these items from the order and purchased them ourselves. The "substitution of parts with parts of greater or equal value" is a cop out. #2 The "free dash and pad" was in trade for louvers that were of POOR quality(for the 2nd time) and we drove all the way there with the intention of buying the dash. And whether you believe it or not, that was GREATLY appreciated. Make sure you tell the whole story, not just a spin to make you look blameless!#3 The rack pinion is undersized and is NO GOOD. You can not smash a cast piece of steel down that far safely. I am a machinist and know how to measure, in case you wondered of my qualifications. We took the shaft off of my car to see if it would fit and it would not tighten on Jerry's pinion shaft of the rack. It is a snug fit on mine. I cannot and will not let you call someone a liar when it is totally unjustified. I could go on and on about the poor metal work and fitment of parts, the wheels he bought from you that wouldn't fit his car and countless other issues,but I won't. Your cars have great potential, and I hope things improve for you, for your sake. I guess that was more than 2 cents worth.

[Bscott]

....."I cannot and will not let you call someone a liar when it is totally unjustified." I can point out a couple of lies for you....
"Headers don't fit right. No help." We have never refused him any help with his headers, he sent Don an e-mail regarding the issue on Monday, and received a response on Wednesday, does he think he is our only customer and should get an immediate response? Don is a very busy man and he answers all questions as quickly as he can. Maybe if Jerry learned how to use a phone he could get answers even quicker? "When I received my rack It was packaged in a Flaming River box. It is not a Flaming River rack, this was confirmed by the tech guy at Flaming River." I know for a fact we have never and will never take a rack out of one box and put it into a flaming river box. The racks that we get that are not flaming river come individually packaged in there own boxes and that is how we send them out. And since you are a machinist and you know how to measure, you should also know about tolerances, the amount that the pinion shaft is different from the u-joint is necessary, that is why the u-joint is slotted so it can be tightened onto the shaft...if there was no clearance how could you ever get the joint onto the shaft?? I think that you and Jerry both need to stop coming on here and trying to bad mouth our company and our customer service, Don and his company have an excellent reputation for customer service, but every now and then we get customers like you 2 who cannot be pleased no matter what we do, so there really is no winning in this case. Don already asked for this to end so that we could continue to help you and bend over backwards making sure you are happy, but apparently that is not the way you want to handle this. So good luck to the both of you, and I hope Jerry truly is happy with his car when it is finished.

[JAC]

You guys call this help? If you order a Sony tv And you get a Samsung in a Sony box thats ok? Thats not a lie? Shouldn't a customer be given the option if the brand name parts he paid for are not avalable? Summit or Jegs let you know if something is a substitute before you buy. I don't hate your company and I know it is difficult to run a company. I just don't like the way I've been treated, and these posts are a perfect example. If the pinon shaft on the rack would have fit I wouldn't have known the difference. I just want the parts to work so I can finish building my car. I guess this customer is never right. I don't want a war I have had enough. I just want the parts to work like they are suppose to, and I want the parts that I paid for. I didn't think that was to much to ask.
If communicating in writing is unacceptable, I will gladly use your expensive toll free number. Just let me know when I can call in the evenings. I like having written proof of what someone says, harder do deny. I thanked Pete for his generosity exchanging the louvers for the dash and pad. I know the car will be nice when it is done.
I've said enough here.
I am done.

[Rich A]

I can't determine what level of skill people have when building a car. Everyone thinks they can build them.

This is so true!!

Just because I can give myself aspirin for a headache or put a bandaid on a cut doesn't make me a doctor. I dont have the qualifications.
So what makes people think if they can replace some parts on a car that they are mechanics and are qualified to assemble a car?

This is my 2 cents

[computerworks]

I think both sides on this issue have had their say.

I would rather see the forum interchange here result in an equitable resolution, rather than be a bar scuffle that has rolled out into the street.

Try to work this out with a phone call.

thanks
ron
ClubCobra Moderator

[dscott]

JAC, I'm back in town so I will give my final response to this matter. I would like you to tell me what I have not helped you with. The headers and sidepipes are an issue that I was trying to address in the 1 day you gave me before posting. I answered your e-mail the day I received it. I asked you specific questions for a reason. There are several factors that will effect the alignment of the sidepipes. If you think about the effect that 1 or 2 degrees variation at the header will change at the rear of the pipe to a much larger degree then maybe you can see the other factors involved. If the motor mounts are not the ones we recommend that can change the header angle. If you have the trans mount a slight amount to the left or right that will change the angle. I asked you the question about motor mounts and your reply was basically don't ask me such stupid questions, I know what I'm doing. Well I don't know what you are doing. Isn't it fair that before I send out over $1000 worth of parts without receiving the old ones first that I have the opportunity to resolve the problem and not just take your word for it. We are a small company and I can't afford to do business that way. I have done everything I can to help you and never refused to give you anything you asked for.

If you want a Flaming River rack send me the one you have and I'll exchange it. I will also point out that in your contract you will find a line that states I can change specs or prices when necessary. That's not unreasonable, if something isn't available when I need it I sometimes substitute. Normally it costs me more money to do that because I don't have wholesale buying at all places. I sometimes buy from Jegs or Summit. The side louvers are bought at either Finishline or Shell Valley. I don't make them. I'm sorry their quality isn't up to you specs.

I have sold hundreds of racks both Flaming River and other brands. Why are you the only one that has a problem? I think you are trying to find problems because your mindset is telling you everything we provide is wrong.

So stay on your soapbox and keep badmouthing us or give me a call to resolve this.

Don

[HI Cobra]

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I got my CR in 1999, and the motor and
tranny was provided by Don. The build wasn't completed until late 2000.
During the build Don ended up answering a lot of our questions and was a
big help in the build process, even though he didn't own CR yet.

Since Don took over CR (now CR II) he has always provided information,
diagrams, suggestions, and, if he had them, sold me parts I needed which
did the job, or recommended what I needed and where I could find them.
This has been a big help to me because Hawaii is a long ways off from the
real world. In a nut shell - I couldn't ask for better service.

[entropy]

I just ran across this thread, and I am compelled to add my 3 cents worth. Don and Pete have been enormously generous with their time when I have asked for help. Don, in particular, has gone well above and beyond what any reasonable person would expect for technical assistance. Anytime that I have phoned for help, he has given me expert advice. If he is was not available, I would leave my phone number, and he called me back within a few hours.

While one might say that all of this is to be expected when you purchase a kit from a company, but I bought my Classic Roadster from an individual! It was only partially completed. Since I did not purchase from Don, he was under no obligation to give me any assistance. Yet he treated me like one of the family. Lastly, because I purchase it partially completed from an individual, it was missing a number of parts. Some were minor, but others were major. Don gave me (i.e. no charge) all of the parts that I needed.

I could not ask or even dream of better service.
Howard

[dscott]

JAC and Hamster, I'm sitting here trying my best not to release my anger on you guys but you have some explaining to do. Yesterday Mr. Craven (JAC) brought us back the rack that he claims was not a Flaming River but some off brand put in a Flaming River box. He raised some serious questions regarding my honesty and our level of customer support on this site. I have told him all along I will help him any way I can. He was not satisfied with the rack or the u-joint we sent him. He immediately posted on this site that we would not help which was a lie. After some discussion I ordered him a new Flaming River rack that I have not received yet. He traded his fuel tank for a carpet set and we did that exchange yesterday when he also dropped off the rack.

I do have a different brand of racks I use when I can't get the Flaming River in a timely manner. This rack he brought back was not the other brand and looked to be the same as a Flaming River. The reason it came in a Flaming River box was because IT IS A FLAMING RIVER RACK. If you look at the attached picture you can see where the name label has been ground off. The only problem I can see is that the rack was cut too short! We call for removal of 3/4" from each inner tie rod end and this one has been cut 1 1/4" from each end. Interesting, they make a mistake by cutting the rack too short and decide to grind off the name and then go after me and my company for selling inferior parts and claiming we don't support what we sell. We measured the pinion shaft and it's the proper size and I personally took 10 of my u-joints off the shelf and they all fit. The one he brought back is not the right joint but he told us he tried it on his friends Flaming River rack and it fit. That's impossible because the one he brought back yesterday isn't even close to fitting a manual rack. It's a joint I've never seen before and isn't for anything we sell. I did exchange it.

Am I just supposed to sit back and let you guys blast me and my company? What the hell! You question my honesty and integrity and then this is what you pull. Are you out to just make me look bad for some reason? I don't get it. I have told you guys over and over that I will support you before, during, and after the build. The same way we support over 9,000 other customers since 1978. After seeing what you guys are doing you can come and get your Flaming River rack. Don't call my number anymore, don't e-mail me, don't let your friends try and get anything from me. I don't need your business and I certainly don't want to associate with your type! You can say anything you want about this company or me but I think the people on this site will understand where you are coming from.

So tell me how you explain this? Tell me why you decided to blame us for something you guys did? Why did you attack me and my company knowing you were telling lies? I'm a reasonable man but this is over the top!
Don

[dscott]

We just noticed that there was another area on this rack that was ground off. According to Mr. Craven, Flaming River puts a serial number on each rack. If that's true, and I don't know if it is, then that number has been ground off as well. Whoever ground off the name badge used the same grinder on the other side. The more I look into this the more upset I get. Mr. Craven just called me and of course he knows nothing about the rack being ground off. So I must assume that this is a ploy on my part to make him look bad. I took a perfectly good, new in the box Flaming River rack, cut the inner tie rods too short, ground off the name badge, ground off the serial number, sent it to Mr. Craven in a Flaming River box just so I could at a point later in time accuse him of badmouthing and telling lies. I also sent him a u-joint that doesn't fit anything just so I could send him the correct one at a later time.

WOW, I'm glad I got that off my chest! I do this all the time because I have so much money to throw away and then I can get my jollys off by making my customers mad. That was my goal when I bought this company. Piss off as many customers as I can, throw money around, buy Flaming River boxes just to put in someone elses racks. It's a plot I tell ya! I think the government is hiding something here, it's a cover up.

Good Luck to you Mr. Craven!

[JAC]

Thanks,
I didn't think it was. If it was a Flaming River rack I wouldn't be having this problem. How does the u-joint keep from coming off if it gets loose on the full splined shaft (no flat)? Thanks again, Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: tech-support
To: Jerry Craven
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: identification


Dear Jerry,
Sorry, but this is not a Flaming River rack,as the Flaming River logo is not stamped on the rack,plus the fact that our racks are splined all the way around on the input shaft(no "flat"),and there would be a dust cover over the input shaft seal.

Best Regards,
Tech Dept.
Flaming River Ind.
800-648-8022

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jerry Craven [mailto:cravenja4@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:13 PM
To: tech-support
Subject: Re: identification


Thank you for your response.
My rack was sold to me as a Flaming River rack on my invoice. There is no stamping on my rack.
I have attached a picture of the pinion shaft. I don't know if you can tell from the picture if this is a Flaming River rack. I purchased the rack and pinion in May of 2006.
I'm in the process of trying to solve this issue with my vendor.
Thanks for your time,
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: tech-support
To: Jerry Craven
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: identification


Dear Sir,
All of our racks will be stamped "Flaming River" on the housing by the pinion shaft.
If it is our rack,and the input shaft needs to be replaced, the rack will need to be sent back into us to replace the shaft,as we do not send parts out for our products due to liability reasons.

Best Regards,
Tech Dept.
Flaming River Ind.
800-648-8022

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jerry Craven [mailto:cravenja4@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 10:37 PM
To: tech-support
Subject: identification


Hello,
Is there any way to identify your steering racks? I have one that has a 9/16" x 26 spline shaft that is .012 undersize. Can this shaft be replaced? There is too much play, even after tightening u-joint.
Thank you.

[hamster427]

Don, It seems you have such a perverse need to always be right that you would go to such lengths to concoct such a ridiculous story. For one, if I was to grind off the names and serial numbers, you would not be able to still conveniently read the name. For two, I wouldn't bring it to you in person so you could discover it with me right there. Oh that's right you had to go home and take a nap just before we got there. If I had a customer service issue such as this, I would have stayed to handle it in person to resovle it once and for all, no matter how tired I was. I tried to show Pete the spline issue, Pete replied "I don't want to get into that". (We brought both u-joints with) Bottom line is, we did not grind anything off the rack to try to cheat you. As far as cutting the rack off short, you don't even know what is suppose to be cut off because in your "World Class Manual" it says 7/8", not 3/4". This is what we cut and it fit fine.
There is no doubt in the past that you have helped out many people through customer service, but for us this is not the case. I had much better service with the old Classic Roadsters, but I know that is not the case for many people, but it was in mine. What I am saying is everybodies experiences are different, so in our case you are not the great savior. I will not in anyway shape or form recommend your company to anyone for any reason. Maybe you do not care, but you should.
We came up to your shop (4 hour round trip) to settle this like adults. You apparently prefer kindergarden playground rules. We know the truth, as do you. I am sorry this ended this way, but I am done with Classic Roadsters II. Any business in the future will be with your competitors.