Original 4 inch vs. Billet Poll

[ENTDOC]

I feel that I am missing some element of this conversation

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by ENTDOC

I feel that I am missing some element of this conversation

Chuck,

It's really nothing. Lew just has a fetish with elevators...

David

[olddog]

Well after taking a long drive in my own Cobra and giving some thought, I had to vote for the billet chassis.

It is my belief that not only is a Kirkham a much better quality car than the original, but the people behind the car have 10 times the honor and character than ole Shelby ever had. I'm not publicly kissing up here, I think it is fact. Therefore, I have to think that some day in the future, Kirkham Cobras will be as valuable as the originals, or at least nearly so. Secondly, I do not think very many billet chassis cars will be sold, due to cost verses real world improvement. That being the case, some day one of these cars is going to be as rare as the 5 million dollar snake and will be worth that type of money.

I know I have been full of crap most of my life, but I think I am dead on, on this one.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by olddog

Well after taking a long drive in my own Cobra and giving some thought, I had to vote for the billet chassis.

It is my belief that not only is a Kirkham a much better quality car than the original, but the people behind the car have 10 times the honor and character than ole Shelby ever had. I'm not publicly kissing up here, I think it is fact. Therefore, I have to think that some day in the future, Kirkham Cobras will be as valuable as the originals, or at least nearly so. Secondly, I do not think very many billet chassis cars will be sold, due to cost verses real world improvement. That being the case, some day one of these cars is going to be as rare as the 5 million dollar snake and will be worth that type of money.

I know I have been full of crap most of my life, but I think I am dead on, on this one.

olddog,

You are most kind with your words. I can truly say we do our best to make the best car we possibly can. If they hold their value, then I am happy. What I truly hope for is that our new car can change the world for the better. Sorry I can't say more about it, or if it will ever drive--but that is my dream.

David

[Ronbo]

I voted for it.

To me it's an additional option to make the car truly yours and it's the best thing about all the different mfg's out there.

There's no rationality to the roadster other than it's appearance and things like chassis modifications don't detract from that. I certainly don't fault the "purists" that want something as close to the original as possible, although most everyone goes beyond what the original cars were even if it's only a higher HP level.

Thankfully you can go to a gathering and not see 200 Blue, White stripped, Iron blocked, clones. The car was all about pushing the limit and crossing the lines in the 60's, this is just another leap in the same direction.

For me it's greatest charm is the classic look, I'm not really interested in re-creating the un-predictability of the originals. In my case I'll take any help I can get to keep it out of the ditch and off the wall.

I reality it's a moot point for me as I already went over budget and doubt I'd be able to afford this, but hey I'd been wishing for some 30yrs to get where I am now.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

I voted for it.

To me it's an additional option to make the car truly yours and it's the best thing about all the different mfg's out there.

There's no rationality to the roadster other than it's appearance and things like chassis modifications don't detract from that. I certainly don't fault the "purists" that want something as close to the original as possible, although most everyone goes beyond what the original cars were even if it's only a higher HP level.

Thankfully you can go to a gathering and not see 200 Blue, White stripped, Iron blocked, clones. The car was all about pushing the limit and crossing the lines in the 60's, this is just another leap in the same direction.

For me it's greatest charm is the classic look, I'm not really interested in re-creating the un-predictability of the originals. In my case I'll take any help I can get to keep it out of the ditch and off the wall.

I reality it's a moot point for me as I already went over budget and doubt I'd be able to afford this, but hey I'd been wishing for some 30yrs to get where I am now.

My thoughts exactly! It's not a "real Cobra" (whatever that means) so I might as well have what I want. Just my thoughts.

David


I think I am going to change my birthday...

[brobehr]

David
your company's engineering and technical prowess is first rate, but I have to agree with the old school mentality that "the lure of the cobra", is just that, " the lure of the beast". Loud smelly, hot, mildly uncomfortable , very intimidating and completely demanding of you attention while driving. ( there is some 'ode to the cobra' that i thought was excellent) They don't call it "driving a legend" for nothing..
Keep up the great work at KMS...I'm saving, saving and saving..

brobehr

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by brobehr

David
your company's engineering and technical prowess is first rate, but I have to agree with the old school mentality that "the lure of the cobra", is just that, " the lure of the beast". Loud smelly, hot, mildly uncomfortable , very intimidating and completely demanding of you attention while driving. ( there is some 'ode to the cobra' that i thought was excellent) They don't call it "driving a legend" for nothing..
Keep up the great work at KMS...I'm saving, saving and saving..

brobehr

You are most kind. I think there are several guys on this very site who are every bit as knowledgeable as we are. We have been fortunate to deal with some very, very smart guys in the industry who have been most forthcoming with their knowledge over the years--we only stand on their shoulders and hope to see a little further.

The car we are making will still have all the lure of the Cobra. It will be a hot, smelly, uncomfortable, most intimidating beast that demands all of your attention while being driven. That really is the undeniable lure of these cars. We wouldn't (and couldn't) change that.

One day we hope to have you as a customer.

David

[Lew Ledyard]

rrrrrrrrrrr!!!

I am sending you a male stripper for your next birthday.

[xracerbob]

I certainly appreciate the engineering effort and execution, but for me a Cobra is a 60's era supercar, with a distinctive charm including all the shortcomings. I would take the Billet excersize and apply it to another group of '60s cars that this group can certainly appreciate- the sports racers like Cooper, Genie, etc. These are really fast track cars that suffer from old suspension technology, unsafe frames or monocoque tubs, and no development. If you stick that chassis under one of those, I think you would have something that no one else has and it would be driveable without the fear of bending irreplaceable parts.

[big-boss]

David:
I think the Billet chasis is a piece of art and I am sure it would match or better any of the fine work you guys do. Pretty simple.

Would I buy one? No. It has been hard for me to digest the billet A-Arms and the SS pipes. BUt, when I weighed it (2280 w/ Iron Block & heads) and was able to get the chassis set up via a normal BMW type guy for $300.00 I can not only tolerate being off the reservation but think it is OK. I do believe that is as far as I can go.

I would have liked JAMO's suspension- adjustibility of the billet but tubular.

I think your market research would show that most of us all have modern supercars/ sports cars in the stable. Lambs, Ferraris', Vets, etc. Why a modern type Cobra?

If you made a complete new package and put a new body on it say like that Cobra prototype Ford was flanting around a couple of years ago wit A/C paddle shifters, etc. and called it a New KIRKHAM or even a JOE, I think you would have saddled another winner. I would buy one of those, ecpecially if a could put it together.

I also think the Kirkham name is beginnning to be a "Designer" name and just may warrent your own body style- Something Cobra like but that would match the art of the new chassis.

Keep up the good work!

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by big-boss

David:
I think the Billet chasis is a piece of art and I am sure it would match or better any of the fine work you guys do. Pretty simple.

Would I buy one? No. It has been hard for me to digest the billet A-Arms and the SS pipes. BUt, when I weighed it (2280 w/ Iron Block & heads) and was able to get the chassis set up via a normal BMW type guy for $300.00 I can not only tolerate being off the reservation but think it is OK. I do believe that is as far as I can go.

I would have liked JAMO's suspension- adjustibility of the billet but tubular.

I think your market research would show that most of us all have modern supercars/ sports cars in the stable. Lambs, Ferraris', Vets, etc. Why a modern type Cobra?

If you made a complete new package and put a new body on it say like that Cobra prototype Ford was flanting around a couple of years ago wit A/C paddle shifters, etc. and called it a New KIRKHAM or even a JOE, I think you would have saddled another winner. I would buy one of those, ecpecially if a could put it together.

I also think the Kirkham name is beginnning to be a "Designer" name and just may warrent your own body style- Something Cobra like but that would match the art of the new chassis.

Keep up the good work!

BigBoss,

I appreciate the kind words. I certainly agree with you that it is time to step out and make something completely our own. We have learned an incredible amount in the manufacturing world and how to assemble a car. We will take that experience and now move on. Our next project is a complete departure from the Cobra/Replica world. I just hope we can pull it off. The automotive world is not for the feint of heart.

David

[thorconstr]

David, I also think that your billet chassis is a work of art! Unfortunately a lot of people on this site are like my ex mother-in-law who would use flat sheets in lieu of fitted sheets because they were too "new fangled"! I guess that if driving an ill handleing machine is the aim, then the car should be left as is. I still like progress, and you guys are it!

[RodKnock]

David, I hope you weren't surprised by the feedback. It appears that about half the people are purists and the other half, like me, would prefer improvements to the underpinnings. Seems like that's the way elections go nowadays too.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

David, I hope you weren't surprised by the feedback. It appears that about half the people are purists and the other half, like me, would prefer improvements to the underpinnings. Seems like that's the way elections go nowadays too.

Actually, I am quite happy with the results of the poll so far. Remember, the original 427 Cobra is every car enthusiasts short list of their most favorite cars of all time. It's lust factor is a 12 on a scale of 1:10. To be able to radically modify the car and still hang with (even beat) the original is quite a feat. Remember I am competing here with nostalgia and decades of history.

One thing that I do question, however...

There are people who buy Superformances, FFR's, ERA's, etc. None of them have frames that are even close to the original. So, why are people enamored with a tube chassis...even if it is a wrong tube chassis? Now, don't go off thinking I am dissing anyone here! I am not. I am asking a marketing question. Really, what I am asking is, "Hey, if I can change the chassis quite a bit from the original (FFR, SPF, ERA) then why do people still like it? I mean, what is the draw of tubes?"

My feeling is (granted, my own here and no one else needs to think like I do) if I am going to change the chassis a little...why not go whole hog and get rid of as many of the evil characteristics as possible? I mean, in the end it is not a real Cobra so why make an exact copy? I'm not trying to fool anyone. If I wanted to drive an original I can...but I invariably choose not to. On the rare occasion I do drive the original car (shows, etc), I have to laugh at (not literally) all the people who ask me, "Who's kit is it?"

David

[Power Surge]

Nobody liked my additonal option??? Even David didn't respond to it .

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

Nobody liked my additonal option??? Even David didn't respond to it .

Sal,

Sorry, got caught up with making the axles for the car.

If you are going to go to all the work to make a push rod suspension (and modify the 4 inch tube chassis radically to do it) why not just go billet? I don't understand the allure of the tubes THAT much. Basically, at that point it is a different car all together so why keep the 4 inch tubes?

David

[David Kirkham]

I am starting to see a pattern here. Forgive me if I am wrong. It seems to me the older guys 50's-60's are more original oriented. (Granted not all). And the 30's-40's guys are more modern billet, bling oriented. (Again, not all). That in itself is a good marketing point--of course, only if I am right in my observations.

David

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Actually, I am quite happy with the results of the poll so far. Remember, the original 427 Cobra is every car enthusiasts short list of their most favorite cars of all time. It's lust factor is a 12 on a scale of 1:10. To be able to radically modify the car and still hang with (even beat) the original is quite a feat. Remember I am competing here with nostalgia and decades of history.

One thing that I do question, however...

There are people who buy Superformances, FFR's, ERA's, etc. None of them have frames that are even close to the original. So, why are people enamored with a tube chassis...even if it is a wrong tube chassis? Now, don't go off thinking I am dissing anyone here! I am not. I am asking a marketing question. Really, what I am asking is, "Hey, if I can change the chassis quite a bit from the original (FFR, SPF, ERA) then why do people still like it? I mean, what is the draw of tubes?"

My feeling is (granted, my own here and no one else needs to think like I do) if I am going to change the chassis a little...why not go whole hog and get rid of as many of the evil characteristics as possible? I mean, in the end it is not a real Cobra so why make an exact copy? I'm not trying to fool anyone. If I wanted to drive an original I can...but I invariably choose not to. On the rare occasion I do drive the original car (shows, etc), I have to laugh at (not literally) all the people who ask me, "Who's kit is it?"

David

...maybe if you used square billet framing you would perk their interest.

Personally (and you already know this of me), I like the old stuff with (as Chuck has said) modern stuff where it makes sense (brakes, shocks). I also have the the first generation adjustable suspension pieces we swapped off your car. That is about the level I like, because I want the same general feel of the 60s Cobra. My C6 Vette has every modern wiz-bang suspension/handling device there is short of a full race car, and while impressive as he!!, it is predictible and maybe just a touch too safe for an old fart looking for some excitment.

But that's me.

I'm reminded of a story that my friends have heard me repeat waaaaay too many times.

NASA and the Fisher Space Pen Company got together and spent millions developing a new ink gel that would work in zero gravity, extreme temperature conditions and even when wet, and then a pressurized pen cartridge that would deliver it in a steady flow. Damn thing worked great and still does, and was highly acclaimed as a masterful engineering acheivment.

The Russians used pencils. They met all the same criteria.



Edit...sometimes I like pencils. But I also use Jorge Hysek pens, so go figure.

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Actually, I am quite happy with the results of the poll so far. Remember, the original 427 Cobra is every car enthusiasts short list of their most favorite cars of all time. It's lust factor is a 12 on a scale of 1:10. To be able to radically modify the car and still hang with (even beat) the original is quite a feat. Remember I am competing here with nostalgia and decades of history.

One thing that I do question, however...

There are people who buy Superformances, FFR's, ERA's, etc. None of them have frames that are even close to the original. So, why are people enamored with a tube chassis...even if it is a wrong tube chassis? Now, don't go off thinking I am dissing anyone here! I am not. I am asking a marketing question. Really, what I am asking is, "Hey, if I can change the chassis quite a bit from the original (FFR, SPF, ERA) then why do people still like it? I mean, what is the draw of tubes?"

My feeling is (granted, my own here and no one else needs to think like I do) if I am going to change the chassis a little...why not go whole hog and get rid of as many of the evil characteristics as possible? I mean, in the end it is not a real Cobra so why make an exact copy? I'm not trying to fool anyone. If I wanted to drive an original I can...but I invariably choose not to. On the rare occasion I do drive the original car (shows, etc), I have to laugh at (not literally) all the people who ask me, "Who's kit is it?"

David

I was waiting to see if that question was raised.

For the most part, all of the cars manufactured today are a replica in looks only. All of them have improvements for the handling and such.

I for one got the drive an original back when I was 16. Yes, it was long ago, but I still remember how primative it was. The SPF I have, while still not a modern car by any means is still light years ahead of that original.

I honestly believe that if a person had the chance to drive an original and then their own car, they would pick their car over the original if the decision was based solely on the handling of the car.