Original 4 inch vs. Billet Poll

[David Kirkham]

Correction here:

Any car after 172 will PROBABLY not have the original type suspension on it. Jeff's car (173) was the first car to have billet parts. Now, that doesn't mean no way guys after that ONLY had billet stuff. We would have put on whatever the customer wanted. That's just how business goes. But from what I remember, there were very, very few that would have gotten original parts after 172.

David

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by computerworks

ha....ha.....



Jeff is 173.

Yup...corrected it. I think some swarmy displaced Mongolian had 182...printed all over the radiator if I recall correctly.

David...Jeff's came with steel suspension bits, and was converted to bling when Cheerleader and I brought it out to Provo in the dead of winter while he was feasting on kim chi.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Yup...corrected it. I think some swarmy displaced Mongolian had 182...printed all over the radiator if I recall correctly.

David...Jeff's came with steel suspension bits, and was converted to bling when Cheerleader and I brought it out to Provo in the dead of winter while he was feasting on kim chi.

As much as I think our esteemed moderator is correct in most things in life...

If I remember correctly...not sure that I do as that was 500 cars ago...but I am pretty sure I am remembering correctly. Jeff's car was the first one delivered with the billet front upper control arm. Later he did indeed come back for more mods--I don't recall what now--but I am about 99.999% sure of that. The reason is we were having a problem at the time getting front upper control arms out of Poland. (Wouldn't you know it, I have 20 of them on the wall right now )

Anyway, I remember talking to Jeff about the control arm and he said, "Hey, looks cool to me; I'll try it." So started our love affair with billet.

David

[thorconstr]

No aluminum blocks or heads! Proper carbs and tranny.

[Jamo]

Okey dokey...maybe you put on the lower ones when we brought it back there. There was something done to the front suspension, cuz it lowered it slightly and I had to lift the front a bit when Pat and I rolled it off the trailer at his house.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Okey dokey...maybe you put on the lower ones when we brought it back there. There was something done to the front suspension, cuz it lowered it slightly and I had to lift the front a bit when Pat and I rolled it off the trailer at his house.

Now that you mention it...I think you are right. We did put new front lower arms on at that point. But the BLING had already begun. The die was cast; we were now on the path to the dark side.

David

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Now that you mention it...I think you are right. We did put new front lower arms on at that point. But the BLING had already begun. The die was cast; we were now on the path to the dark side.

David

Ha, dark side, us "younger" customers prefer the "bling's" strength and weight reduction characteristics. You go David. In the future, your market is the younger set.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Ha, dark side, us "younger" customers prefer the "bling's" strength and weight reduction characteristics. You go David. In the future, your market is the younger set.

Of course, our customer is in his early 60's and this is what he wanted. Then again, he has always been ahead of his time.

David

[What'saCobra?]

Voted for billet. Prefer LeMans/FIA cars. Small blocks, but 8000rpm.

Not on the list: monocoque. i know it is very very difficult and still keep the interior look.

Chassis stiffness is just so very important for control and predictability, IHMO. CV joints are simply de rigor. They correct a horrible world of hang-ups and chassis jacking. Getting the inside front tire to bite and turn really demands a stiff chassis and rising-rate sticktionless linkages and spring/shock geometries.

Once you've tried a stiff chassis, you will never go back. Low weight & more aft CG & low polar moment are also primo on the list of reliable performance mods. All these point to monocoque.

On the other hand, a billet chassis was also considered 'impossible'. But, very beautiful and likely a serious improvement in every specification.

Check my flicks. We still take the M6B out for a Sunday drive or two and it always rewards, although the lift and loss of downforce in a 90 degree crosswind (you know, sideways!) has been proven in practical tests to be not acceptable.

Having said all that, i don't really care much for the old frames either, stiff or loose, they were flexible flyers. But Superleggera construction is our history, tubes and trusses were in aircraft first, then metal monocoques took over the world. Then composite monocoques.

But, the billet is absolutely a beautiful artistic expression and you ought to do a paper for the SAE. i know of no engineer that would not contratulate you both for such beauty and advanced engineering as art.

[decooney]

Hi David.

What makes the original KMP chassis format and approach most attractive is it's raw simplicity and vintage curves right down to the visible welds and vintage style bits. Going with precise Billet components on an aluminum vintage style Kirkham Cobra for me is sort of like the expression of trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. I vote for applying the passion to use billet on something more modern and edgy.

Now if you were to create a completely NEW Cobra car, larger and slightly restyled body, as a modernized version of the vintage Cobra (sort of like the one that Ford never built - using the modern drivetrain too) and applied the billet components passion there, I bet you'd find a whole new chapter of customers. Just think, now they'd have to have the vintage and new KMP car too. I can visualize the new car in my head right now. Go for something new and apply the billet passion there. Can't wait to see it.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by decooney

Hi David.
Go for something new and apply the billet passion there. Can't wait to see it.

It takes a ton of money and time to make a new car. I hope it turns out like what I see in my head as well.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

Voted for billet.

...

But, the billet is absolutely a beautiful artistic expression and you ought to do a paper for the SAE. i know of no engineer that would not congratulate you both for such beauty and advanced engineering as art.

THAT is what I was trying for! My feeling is if something is really engineered well, then it will always be beautiful. Thanks for the kind words.

David

[big-boss]

I knew this would eventually come up.
So prior to KMP 172 are the most original of the Kirkhams that are copies of the "real" Cobra. When we all go in the "KIRKHAM" Car regestry should they be KMP Series I, II, III, etc? That would be cool.

Also, Are the SS chasis's stiffer? I have not had my car on the track yet. But just driving around it seems tighter than any Cobra I have had. Even when jcaked up it seems stiffer.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by big-boss

I knew this would eventually come up.
So prior to KMP 172 are the most original of the Kirkhams that are copies of the "real" Cobra. When we all go in the "KIRKHAM" Car regestry should they be KMP Series I, II, III, etc? That would be cool.

Also, Are the SS chasis's stiffer? I have not had my car on the track yet. But just driving around it seems tighter than any Cobra I have had. Even when jcaked up it seems stiffer.

Actually, the stainless chassis is slightly less stiff compared to the steel chassis. But it is actually quite a small difference.

David

[David Kirkham]

The reason all of our cars are in the Registry is because any of them could very easily be converted to an original spec car and then be used by bad guys for nefarious purposes. It is a simple matter of just unbolting things and bolting the original stuff back on.

David

[Dan Stryffeler]

I voted for the original tube w/Kirkham billet suspension...

Have to agree with some other posters; my preference is the 60's type experience when driving the car (including carb's vs modern fuel injection) and replace/upgrade where it's practical - tires, shocks, electrical, etc.

I am very happy with the conversion tubular suspension stuff I have on my EM.

I don't race or push the car too hard - age 48 comin on up on 49, so I fit into your stats on age vs. technology I guess...

Dan

[Johnson]

I think the billet definitely looks cool, but if you are going with the billet, why not a transaxle like the GR1 or Corvette (Kind of like Leno did in his Toranado)? I don’t know what would look cooler with that billet chassis, halibrands with Goodyear BB’s so at a glance it looks old school or BIG wheels so you see the suspension and chassis from a distance? Maybe you should compliment it with something that looks equally as cool on a cobra as halibrands, but are not halibrands, make them spline drive knock-offs with lots of open space to see that chassis. Then if you use the billet chassis and big wheels you need to add stack injection to give it that retro look.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Johnson

I think the billet definitely looks cool, but if you are going with the billet, why not a transaxle like the GR1 or Corvette (Kind of like Leno did in his Toranado)? I don’t know what would look cooler with that billet chassis, halibrands with Goodyear BB’s so at a glance it looks old school or BIG wheels so you see the suspension and chassis from a distance? Maybe you should compliment it with something that looks equally as cool on a cobra as halibrands, but are not halibrands, make them spline drive knock-offs with lots of open space to see that chassis. Then if you use the billet chassis and big wheels you need to add stack injection to give it that retro look.

We can't go with a transaxle because there is simply no room to do so. The area in the cockpit is extremely tight. We will be using a wheel that looks like the original Cobra--but we will be making them ourselves. We want the car to "look" right.

David

[goof2]

I voted billet but I was curious about what the difference in weight is between the billet and tubular stainless chassis. That was also using your assumption that the price would remain the same between the two. With the difference in price I would opt for the stainless chassis with billet suspension components.

I can't wait to see what kind of original car the masterminds of Kirkham come up with. My guess is it will set the industry on its ear. All I ask is don't stop making Cobras (at least until I can afford one).

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by goof2

I voted billet but I was curious about what the difference in weight is between the billet and tubular stainless chassis. That was also using your assumption that the price would remain the same between the two. With the difference in price I would opt for the stainless chassis with billet suspension components.

I can't wait to see what kind of original car the masterminds of Kirkham come up with. My guess is it will set the industry on its ear. All I ask is don't stop making Cobras (at least until I can afford one).

The weight difference between a stainless chassis and a steel chassis is around 20 pounds. The difference between our billet chassis and the original chassis is about 20 pounds as well. The problem is, I can't remember which car (steel or stainless) we compared the billet chassis to!

I will have to go back an look at the numbers...or, just wait until we drive it here in a few days.

David