Continuing saga for Roush 511

[RodKnock]

Why not talk to a lawyer and have all three of you possibly hire an attorney who understands the circumstances?

I don't want to throw Jamo into the fire, but maybe he could recommend someone to speak to at least. Maybe create a letter, that requires action on Roush's part, to Jack Roush or other principals within the organization.



That would be the higher level that comes to my mind.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Why not talk to a lawyer and have all three of you possibly hire an attorney who understands the circumstances?

I don't want to throw Jamo into the fire, but maybe he could recommend someone to speak to at least. Maybe create a letter, that requires action on Roush's part, to Jack Roush or other principals within the organization.



That would be the higher level that comes to my mind.

Getting lawyers involved means I would never be able to be a Roush customer again. That is not what I want. My engine runs, it just does not run well.

As for shipping to someone else:

There are lots of people that purport to know about the Accel DFI system, but I send them things and they all come back with exactly the same checklist I got from Roush that so far has not worked. There is noone in the Denver Metro area that will work on it. Roush can't point me to anyone either. So bottom line is I'm not going to spend 2500 or 3000 shipping the car to someone only to find out that they end up exactly where I'm at today. If it goes to Roush I have some feeling that it will be resolved by the people who know the Accel DFI system in this exact application.

One of the things that Todd told me that it could in fact be the Accel DFI controller, and if so that I should consider swapping the whole unit for their newer one. This would put a cap on the costs. If it looks like it'll take more time (Time == Money) than swapping, I'll swap.

(I even went to a local tuner that attempted to adjust the fuel map, but now I am positive that these adjustments are merely masking the problem and not solving it.)

And when Walt Hane shrugs his shoulders and told me "send it back to Roush" I should have listened. He said that a year ago... Unfortunately I didn't listen then...

[twobjshelbys]

It is interesting to note that if Roush were to pony up to all of our problems and solve them (I'm even willing to pay part of it) to our satisfaction, they would be heroes in this forum. [Actually, it might take a fourth person having a problem that is quickly resolved to prove the point.]

[csx4910]

Update - Roush jsut emailed me the tracking numbers for the Flywheel and another new starter they are overnighting to the shop. The Roush engineer is also wondering if possibly the lakewood bellhousing had the holes for the starter out of alignment.

Either way, the flywheel and new starter are on their way. I appreciate Roush stepping it up to get what my car needs to get back on the road.

I know there are those of you that think I am crazy, but I have no intention of moving my car to a differnt shop. I have faith in Charlie and Hot Rods by Dean that they will get this fixed and they are not the cause of the problems I have had with this motor.
Ron

[vector1]

i have a gen 7 controller if you want to borrow one and you're confident it won't be damaged. i'd like to look at your program if you can email it to me, i messed with mine for quite a while before i gave up, i'm no expert but i'd like to look at it.

opposite where your starter hooks onto the bellhousing drill a hole inline with the starter ring and you can tell if something is crooked or not aligned or will not engage far enough. i did this on mine, although aluminum, and i'm sure it saved me some problems.

[RedBarchetta]

At this point I'd be considering swapping in a QuickTime housing (as per a previous recommendation I read on this thread). There does appear to be some form of misalignment and unless you're fully prepared to grind the new parts and replace them, it might be worth the extra expense to just deal with that now and eliminate it as part of the problem.

Not to mention that Accel is also getting a worse reputation via this thread, too.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by vector1

i have a gen 7 controller if you want to borrow one and you're confident it won't be damaged. i'd like to look at your program if you can email it to me, i messed with mine for quite a while before i gave up, i'm no expert but i'd like to look at it.

PM me your email address and I'll send you the tune file (both the original from Roush and the one we've tweeked but still doesn't work). There are some parts of it you won't be able to look at unless you are connected to a box with an advanced key. Unfortunately the Gen7 software will not honor the key on just a read. The part that you want to be able to see is the fuel map.

About the offer of the loaner: First I can't guarantee that it won't be damaged, which is what I'm worried about. Second, it doesn't look like they used a bulkhead connector at the firewall to make the connections to the controller but instead ran the wires out. I'm not going to unwire everything to find out if a swap will work. That is what I want Roush to do. I can't be guaranteed that something isn't miswired, but I'm reluctant to tear into this part of it myself.

Remember all the woes started with the engine's Throttle Position Sensor cable (the adapter cable from the 8-stack to the DFI controller) being wired backwards. They tried lots of mechanical adjustments to work around this.

Thanks thought!

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

At this point I'd be considering swapping in a QuickTime housing (as per a previous recommendation I read on this thread). There does appear to be some form of misalignment and unless you're fully prepared to grind the new parts and replace them, it might be worth the extra expense to just deal with that now and eliminate it as part of the problem.

Not to mention that Accel is also getting a worse reputation via this thread, too.

I agree. If the same thing happens again, it'll be hard to make a case that the problem is in Roush's control.

[DWRAT]

Originally Posted by csx4910

Update - Roush jsut emailed me the tracking numbers for the Flywheel and another new starter they are overnighting to the shop. The Roush engineer is also wondering if possibly the lakewood bellhousing had the holes for the starter out of alignment.

Either way, the flywheel and new starter are on their way. I appreciate Roush stepping it up to get what my car needs to get back on the road.

I know there are those of you that think I am crazy, but I have no intention of moving my car to a differnt shop. I have faith in Charlie and Hot Rods by Dean that they will get this fixed and they are not the cause of the problems I have had with this motor.
Ron

Ron that's great news and I agree with keeping put at your shop.

[Mulv]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

There does appear to be some form of misalignment

It may be a bell housing but you don't need to misalign the starter to chew up the flywheel. Mini starters have gears in different pitches and if you install the wrong one with the flywheel you eat the teeth. These are things that people know who work with these components on a regular basis.

I did not know that, the guy that does my Ford stuff told me... He also asked what clutch is on there and a bunch of other stuff that I cannot obviously answer.

I will say once again that there is no way on earth I would ever buy anything from these guys at Roush and for two reasons. First, for the kind of money you have in these engines, you should have twice as much horsepower and second, if you are going to charge double what something is worth then at least be prepared to get it right when something goes wrong.... I am also dubious that your repair guys know what is up here - that is probably because every 32 Ford has a Chevy engine and I'll bet they are probably experts on those..

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by Mulv

I will say once again that there is no way on earth I would ever buy anything from these guys at Roush and for two reasons. First, for the kind of money you have in these engines, you should have twice as much horsepower and second, if you are going to charge double what something is worth then at least be prepared to get it right when something goes wrong.... I am also dubious that your repair guys know what is up here - that is probably because every 32 Ford has a Chevy engine and I'll bet they are probably experts on those..

Come on, that's just nonsense and you know it. Roush charges a premium, but you're not paying double what a top crate motor builder is charging. Just not true.

[Mulv]

Originally Posted by Got the Bug

Come on, that's just nonsense and you know it. Roush charges a premium, but you're not paying double what a top crate motor builder is charging. Just not true.

Really? I have a GT40 crate motor in my Mustang that with minor mods make about 400-425 hp depending on the dyno and it cost about $5500- to get it to the drop in to the car stage. A Roush 327 that makes 350 HP costs more than 10 grand... now what isn't true? 550 HP from a big block is how much? $42K? I doubt it... if it is 20 it is too much... here is a 521 from Ford that makes big power and costs less than $10K.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Ford+Racing/39...521FT/10002/-1


Think the pulleys, alternator and carb cost $30K? Even the fuel injection can be had for about $7K.. here , have another KoolAid...

Oh yeah and these engines work and have a guarantee that will be honoured....

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by Mulv

Really? I have a GT40 crate motor in my Mustang that with minor mods make about 400-425 hp depending on the dyno and it cost about $5500- to get it to the drop in to the car stage. A Roush 327 that makes 350 HP costs more than 10 grand... now what isn't true? 550 HP from a big block is how much? $42K? I doubt it... if it is 20 it is too much... here is a 521 from Ford that makes big power and costs less than $10K.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Ford+Racing/39...521FT/10002/-1


Think the pulleys, alternator and carb cost $30K? Even the fuel injection can be had for about $7K.. here , have another KoolAid...

Oh yeah and these engines work and have a guarantee that will be honoured....

A Ford Racing engine similar to a Roush 327 will run you $7,500, and comparable Keith Craft engine is in that range as well. So not double on that comparison.

On the 511, if you say that the Ford crate needs nothing more that a $7K FI system, then you got me. Hey, I didn't drink the Kool-aid on that one.

[vector1]

here's what my gen7 ecu looks like. if it is the same you are welcome to try it. i would see what roush has planned for recourse first, maybe they will provide one, but if their plan is not satisfactory or you want to try it you are welcome. does your setup have a datalogger, that is what makes these systems so nice, i can't imagine trying to tune by yourself without one. no airleaks in the exhaust, any at all? here's my email, i'd like to look at your tune. goingin12@hotmail.com

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Mulv

550 HP from a big block is how much? $42K? I doubt it... if it is 20 it is too much... here is a 521 from Ford that makes big power and costs less than $10K.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Ford+Racing/39...521FT/10002/-1


Think the pulleys, alternator and carb cost $30K? Even the fuel injection can be had for about $7K.. here , have another KoolAid...

Oh yeah and these engines work and have a guarantee that will be honoured....

I am certainly not sticking up for Roush....but let's keep our facts straight. The 521 ci motor from Ford to which you referred is a carbureted 385-series-based motor--not a stack fuel-injected FE (which is what CSX4910's motor is). Furthermore, I believe the 511 Roush FE makes 600 HP, not 550 HP.

Roush does charge a premium for their motors--the price of their 511 IR FE is probably roughly $10k above what you would pay to a reputable FE builder (e.g., Keith Craft) for a similarly equipped engine. And yes, you could get more HP from one of the other builders from a similar engine.

In any event, what these guys are experiencing with their Roush motors sucks--as I've said before. And Roush needs to make things right.

[Car Nut]

I'm not trying to stir this thread up anymore but, another thought on the starter eating issue. Previous posts hinted Roush made the suggestion one brand fit better than the Lakewood unit.

Lakewood recommends checking the alignment (runout on the hole for the transmission) due to manufacturing tolerances and offers offset dowels for ensuring alignment.

It might a contributing problem to starter misalignment (not indexed properly to crank center). And again it might not.

[csx4910]

As it turns out Roush sent a Quicktime Bellhousing in the overnight package so we are going to put that one on e with the new starter and flyweel. Other than missing the shim/spacer needed for the Qucktime to line up, I was pleasantly suprised Roush sent that along as well.
Ron

[Car Nut]

Really cool.

As most of these SFI bell housing are fully enclosed, you can bolt on the flywheel, the housing and starter, with out the clutch. You then check the starter drive to verify it has lots of clearance.

Just a thought. Might be worth passing along.

I think its great Roush has fnally stepped up on this thing. I don't know what the relationship with the shop, Roush and the old shop is or was so I won't comment.

I am glad you have the right stuff to get your car together.

[csx4910]

An update. I believe we finally might have some resolution. It turns out Roush wasn't planning on giving us the new bellhousing without charging me for it so I declined to go that route. I am not paying anything else at this point. On a good note, when the new flywheel showed up, there were definite changes in the new flywheel vs the old one. Same manufacturer, same part number, everything and even Roush didnt know that the manufacturer(Mcleod I believe) has changed the shape of the teeth. According to the shop, hand turning the old one was still binding but hand turning the new one seems to be moving freely. The shop took pics to send to Roush and we are shipping the old flywheel back to them so they can follow up with the manufacturer. With any luck I might finally have my car back early next week.
Ron

[Spoooky]

Ron,

I saw your car and Charlie is determine to get it right. I really think ( Hot Rods by Dean ) wants you on the road just as bad. It's coming together. Take a breath, you are almost there. I think you will be really happy with the out come. That's a good shop.