Dyno run

[Rebel1]

Interesting Box, and I suspect you have a huge chance of getting your money back.

In my limited knowledge of IP ownership or indeed how this act of tuning actually comes about I suspect that none of these tuners can claim an IP ownership of any tunes at all.

My reasons are these and please correct me if I'm totally off base here.

For any GM engine to fire and run initially then a generic tune as supplied by GM has to be used or a tune based upon a generic tune.

Once the engine is running the tuner uses tools ie. HP tuners or EFI Llive, to (I'll use the term) "hack" into the GM OS and tune to make changes to the parameters.

In other words the tuner has not written any code nor compiled that code into a running application. He has merely hacked into a generic tune and changed some tables.

Given the requirement that all tunes include as a starting point a generic tune then have these tuners paid GM for the generic tune included in their product. (ie tune)

Am I correct in my assumptions and if so does the very act of selling a hacked product and claiming it to be your own be somewhat illegal.

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

Interesting Box, and I suspect you have a huge chance of getting your money back.

In my limited knowledge of IP ownership or indeed how this act of tuning actually comes about I suspect that none of these tuners can claim an IP ownership of any tunes at all.

My reasons are these and please correct me if I'm totally off base here.

For any GM engine to fire and run initially then a generic tune as supplied by GM has to be used or a tune based upon a generic tune.

Once running the tuner uses tools ie. HP tuners or EFI Llive, to (I'll use the term) "hack" into the GM OS and tune to make changes to the parameters.

In other words the tuner has not written any code and compiled that code into a running application. He has merely hacked into a generic tune and changed some tables.

Given the requirement that all tunes include as a starting point a generic tune then have these tuners paid GM for the generic tune included in their product. (ie tune)

Am I correct in my assumptions and if so does the very act of selling a hacked product and claiming it to be yours somewhat illegal.

I do not know where that stands legally Les.
I asked about my issue only.

[Philm]

This is where this debate will spiral into infinity. What Les has stated is also an argument that is valid IMHO.

[sideshow]

not be start another **** fight

but what is the law regarding bad mouthing a business on public forums

there is another forums to do with toyota v8s and they have a section where

u can actually post stuff about bad adventures with other companies

now i think this is totally wrong and the moderators of that forums should stop it

i recon if somone in the real world can get punished for publicly rubbishing a biusiness when it results in loss of work

then what is the difference on a public forum

anyway i will speak to my solicitor just to get a rough idea on where companies stand with forums

so i can be careful with what i post and warn others with what they post

and if anyone on here is a solicitor of some sort what are your opinions on this

and dont be biast to this site

im just curipus to see where everyone stands

anyway i think dirty laundry should not be posted on forums

just my 10 cents as ive been cusrios for afew years

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by sideshow

not be start another **** fight

but what is the law regarding bad mouthing a business on public forums

there is another forums to do with toyota v8s and they have a section where

u can actually post stuff about bad adventures with other companies

now i think this is totally wrong and the moderators of that forums should stop it

i recon if somone in the real world can get punished for publicly rubbishing a biusiness when it results in loss of work

then what is the difference on a public forum

anyway i will speak to my solicitor just to get a rough idea on where companies stand with forums

so i can be careful with what i post and warn others with what they post

and if anyone on here is a solicitor of some sort what are your opinions on this

and dont be biast to this site

im just curipus to see where everyone stands

anyway i think dirty laundry should not be posted on forums

just my 10 cents as ive been cusrios for afew years

Sideshow. Please show me where I have "bad mouthed" him or his business.

I advised I was not happy, I never got into a name calling scenario, Infact Dan is the one who has replied with "but after the performance of a 5 year old i think I would withdraw that offer ."

Please Sideshow, re read all the messages that I have posted on the LS1 site regarding this matter, if you can find any part where I have "bad mouthed" Dan or ChipMaster then please point it out to me.
I am sure you will find once you re read it (as I have just done) that I have not "bad mouthed" anyone, I infact sing his praises regarding starting first time and such good numbers, I am just not happy that I could not get it adjusted.

[OZCOBRA]

Christ Boxhead ,
I bought this little spat Over here after the mods had suspended your account on ls1 for a laugh...
...it's bloody ridiculous where it has gone...and totally agree with what you just stated ..you haven't bad mouthed anyone ,they're lucky it wasn't me who got the tune I'm by no means as diplomatic as YOU!!

[LoBelly]

Originally Posted by sideshow

anyway i will speak to my solicitor just to get a rough idea on where companies stand with forums

so i can be careful with what i post and warn others with what they post

Well if you're in Victoria (or a statement you made is published in Victoria) you can get a rough guide by looking at the Law Institue of Victoria web site:

http://www.liv.asn.au/public/legalin...-Defamati.html

-love google-
of particular interest to Boxhead might be this bit :

• Justification/Contextual truth
  This is a complete defence in Victoria, regardless of how damaging a statement may be to a person's reputation

I understand that other states have other defences (like a requirement that there be some public interest).

Also, sideshow's post demonstrates the fluid and variable nature peoples views regarding the fruits of other peoples labours, particularly when contasted with the post below.

Originally Posted by Doubledip

he locks his tunes so you cant read them... and so he should he has spent countless hours tuning these for the prefect settings and thats just it protecting his IP

So it appears that is perfectly fine to freely distribute the opinion of a solicitor who has spent countless hours developing his opinions and understanding of the law but it is also perfectly ok to lock a tune on the basis that you've spent countless hours developing it



LoBelly

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by sideshow

but what is the law regarding bad mouthing a business on public forums

Originally Posted by sideshow

this site sucks

y is it so bloody hard to post decent pics

anyway try emailing me a pic and ill let u know

otherwise get the website hosts to fuking fix it finally

hehehehehe

im over it

Is that the sort of bad mouthing\airing dirty laundry etc your referring to?

[Plums]

Thanks for the legal heads up Boxhead. I won't be locking any tunes in future, and to be honest I have often wondered how long it would take before this came up.

I think I'll just do unlocked basic tunes for the masses and keep all the trick stuff for friends...

Rebel1, I think you are totally correct. I have HPTuners and as you rightly pointed out, I just modify bunches of "GM tables" to achieve my desired result.
The one person that this thread started about though, does write his own code.

[boxhead]

Plums, I was advised that if you get a written approval from the customer advising them of the choice of locked or not then you are covered.

[Rebel1]

Plums, I believe that if you only send average tunes unlocked then you are doing yourself a grave injustice. After all, your basic tune as you call it is just as much a hacked GM tune as is your all singing all dancing tune.

I think it has been said before, what makes clients return is SERVICE which includes what happens and how fast it happens when a problem is encountered.

Despite all the debate the real problem here is that Box was NOT advised the tune would be locked. I would hope that had box purchased one of your tunes that you would anticipated that he, being in central Oz, and having already advised he would have the car dyno tuned, would require an unlocked tune.

As to the question by Sideshow " but what is the law regarding bad mouthing a business on public forums?"

Have a look here:
http://www.recalls.gov.au/view_recal...ecall_type=all

That's a list of products recalled from the market in the last 30 days. Behind every one of those recalls is a sad tale to be told by a consumer. Sure, some recalls are because the manufacturer/vendor identified a problem after distribution but in most cases the faults originated in the public forum.

Now...keep in mind that these are only recalls which pose a threat to the public. It does not include the recall of products which pose no threat to health or safely.

If you will have a look at product 2008/10341 on that list. It is for the front hub assy. of a commodore. Here is what the recall notice says.

"Defect Details: The product has fractured causing the front wheel of the vehicle to which the product is fitted to separate itself from its mounting point."

Put yourself in the place of the first ever person to complain that the hub fractured. Do you think he was met with a smile and a replacement given to him without question. Do you think the seller/manufacturer used all sorts of self satisfying excuses like " we have sold hundreds of these and no-one else has a problem", or " You must have hit a gutter". And do you think the seller/manufacturer covered the cost of any consequent damage caused because the hub fractured.

Sideshow, notice that this site is a government site and sellers or manufacturers are named. In many cases the seller/manufacturer is being FORCED to recall his faulty goods.

A trader who has a decent management philosophy regarding the handling of complaints or warranty claims will not find themselves in a public dispute.

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by boxhead

Sideshow. Please show me where I have "bad mouthed" him or his business.

I advised I was not happy, I never got into a name calling scenario, Infact Dan is the one who has replied with "but after the performance of a 5 year old i think I would withdraw that offer ."

Please Sideshow, re read all the messages that I have posted on the LS1 site regarding this matter, if you can find any part where I have "bad mouthed" Dan or ChipMaster then please point it out to me.
I am sure you will find once you re read it (as I have just done) that I have not "bad mouthed" anyone, I infact sing his praises regarding starting first time and such good numbers, I am just not happy that I could not get it adjusted.

Originally Posted by sideshow

there is another forums to do with toyota v8s and they have a section where

u can actually post stuff about bad adventures with other companies

now i think this is totally wrong and the moderators of that forums should stop it

Boxhead , how bout you re read sideshows last post.. it wasnt aimed at you but at another forum where the bad mouthing goes on all the time. Sideshow was actually asking others what the stand is on that , seeming you had gone to the hard work of ringing around and finding stuff out he was asking where do people stand on that matter.... you really need to stop being so defensive when ever he starts posting stuff in the same thread as you..



Rebel1 - thanks for your reply.. this is what he was after. top stuff

[Rebel1]

And here is another interpretation ...

Can this suppliers tunes be classed as "faulty" therefore refundable because they directly allow( encourage) the operation of a vehicle without legislated emission controls.( ie. MAF).

Not only does it allow the vehicle to operate in an illegal manner but also prevents the operator/owner of said vehicle to correct the situation and make the vehicle comply with legislation.

Serviceability is a legislative requirement of vehicles. see the above link to the ACCC recall site and note 2008/10385 regarding the Honda Jazz.

"Defect Details: During the manufacturing process, damage may have occurred to a joint in the handbrake lever assembly mechanism. Continued use may cause sufficient wear for the joint to detach and make the handbrake assembly unserviceable."

So the defect with the Jazz is not because the handbrake lever can wear but because it would become "unserviceable" after that wear.

I suppose because after a time a fleet of Jazz vehicles would be running around with unserviceable hand brakes.

A legal precedent set regarding serviceability maybe?.

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

Boxhead , how bout you re read sideshows last post.. it wasnt aimed at you but at another forum where the bad mouthing goes on all the time. Sideshow was actually asking others what the stand is on that , seeming you had gone to the hard work of ringing around and finding stuff out he was asking where do people stand on that matter.... you really need to stop being so defensive when ever he starts posting stuff in the same thread as you..



Rebel1 - thanks for your reply.. this is what he was after. top stuff

DoubleDip, I was taking sideshows comments as being part of this thread and taking it in that context.
If his intention was for it to be a general question then perhaps he should have opened a new thread and asked, Since as you say it was not intended at me pesonally it therefore has nothing at all to do with this thread.
But if what you are saying was his true intent I place my hand on my chest, bow and appologise.

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by boxhead

DoubleDip, I was taking sideshows comments as being part of this thread and taking it in that context.
If his intention was for it to be a general question then perhaps he should have opened a new thread and asked, Since as you say it was not intended at me pesonally it therefore has nothing at all to do with this thread.
But if what you are saying was his true intent I place my hand on my chest, bow and appologise.

not a problem , all cool then....

[OZCOBRA]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

not a problem , all cool then....

..Finally a peaceful resolution..

[Plums]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

And here is another interpretation ...

Can this suppliers tunes be classed as "faulty" therefore refundable because they directly allow( encourage) the operation of a vehicle without legislated emission controls.( ie. MAF).

Not only does it allow the vehicle to operate in an illegal manner but also prevents the operator/owner of said vehicle to correct the situation and make the vehicle comply with legislation.

It depends on the year model..... There were a few different HSV cars that came MAFLess from the factory.
I always use a HSV SV300 program for my MAFLess tunes, that way they are compliant without the MAF.

Of course I would have sent Boxhead an unlocked PCM. I don't think I've locked a "Cobra" PCM yet...

Boxhead, I do believe that you haven't really received a fair deal from Chipmaster (geez I only charge $350 for these Cobra tunes, sometimes less). If you send me a spare PCM (not Delco's locked one), I'll send it back with a MAFless tune to your specs for nothing. Also, if you are interested in buying the software down the track, I'll help you learn how to use it so you can fine tune YOUR car to YOUR liking.....

[boxhead]

Thanks for the offer of a tune Plums but it is not required, as I now have 2 PCM's (one from ChipMaster and one from Mildura), I do need to supply a replacement unit to the guy in Mildura, so do you or any other supplier have an unlocked PCM that I could purchase. Quoted prices can be pm'd to me so there is no price war if that makes sellers happier.

I would be very keen to talk to you Plums in regards to buying my own software and if your willing to assist and give tips that would be great.
I wont be looking at doing this for approx 12 months as I have started on the rego process and have promised SWMBO a trip to England next year (so funds are tied up)

[alffie]

How much is the software worth?

[Plums]

I only have a couple of spares, but you can have one for $250.