Need Help with ignition.

[Snake]

Hey Everyone! Here is my problem....I got no spark at the plugs. I'm useing a Holley HP Annihilator ignition system (#800-100). Got voltage at the coil but nothing at the distributor. I'm using a Ford Duraspark distributor with the factory module....but the conector that plugs into it....I have no info on what wires to use for the ignition system....my wires on the conector are Blue,Red,Red,Green with yellow line,Black....But from the Holley system there are only 2 wires that have to be conected....White and Red.
Does anybody have this same setup that could tell me what to do....so I could get a spark and get my engine running.
Or have a better way on hooking up my system. I don't know if this makes sence to anyone...as to me...I'ts my first time at this.
Thanks Everyone...what ever info would be a great help. Oh..Ya..
try and make it easy...as i said it's my first time.
Snake.

[dscott]

When you say you are using the factory module do you mean the dist module or the duraspark box with the dist. If you are using the Holley system is it a standalone system or a "kicker" box to be used with the duraspark box. There should only be 3 wires from the dist. You only need to use 2 of them, the black wire isn't used. Let me know what you have and how you want to wire it.
Don

[Snake]

Hey Don! I'll try to explain better. My distributor is electronic...with the module that is glued to the side of the distributor. My ingnition system (Holley 800-100) is a box that sites on the firewall. I have a laser shot coil...that is mounted to the firewall and grounded to the engine block. Form the Holley system there are 2 wires I have to conect to the distributor...the white wire....and a red wire. The problem is the wires that come off the module ...which ones do I use? Or....am I doing something wrong...in the intructions from holley they don't show the distributor in the picture...so I have no idea where and which collor wires, I'm to use from the distributor. Also in the info from Holleys drawing all start. From the HP Annihilator#800-100 there are wires Black and Orange...Black to Neg side Laser shot coil....Orange to Pos side Laser coil. Next...Brown to Tach....Purple...and Green ..NOT USED! Next...2 wire separate from other wire bundle BLACK and RED....Red (12 gauge) to Battery Pos......Black wirer...to Battery Neg..then to engine ground. This is were I get mixed up....single wire from Holley system....White wire to......it seems to go up to where wires are comming from a Coil Neg....what Coil....I thought I only had the Laser Shot Coil..to work with? The other RED wire from the Holley system goes to the other side of that Coil Pos? Are thay refering to this Coil as The distributor module.
I'm confused......?
Snake.
P.S. If this doesn't make any sence...I can understand.

[petek]

Snake,
I think my system is identical to yours. I'll take a look tonight and post how mine is wired (and working).

[JOHNNYCOBRA]

I'm running the exact same system with a 351winsor.
I havent got to the wiring yet, but would like to know what problems I'll be running into.

I've got the holley anhililator but identified as 800-003

Thanks for any info

johnny

[dscott]

Snake, I haven't used the Holley system but it sounds like it's the same as the MSD. You need to have an ignition source to the box so I would assume this is the smaller red wire, it would be wired to wire # 128 which is the old ignition wire to the coil. The white wire is usually for a trigger that you won't use. The purple and green would be for the dist. On the MSD system you need to cross the wires to the dist. Green to purple, purple to green. Your blue wire from the dist may be purple? That's the way most Ford dist. are.
Don

[Jack21]

Can't help much here. Using MSD6 box, MSD dist, Accel CD coil. But here's a diagnostic that might help.

Most of these ignition boxes have a wire that is used for a points type distributor. It is not used with a magnetic pulse, or other electronic ignition. If you disconnect the primary wires to the distributor, but leave the coil primary wires connected, you can test the box and coil.

Take the plug wire from the coil to distributor, and remove it from the distributor end. Connect a spark plug to this wire and ground the plug base to the engine block. Gently grip plug with vice grip. Do not hold plug wires, plug, or plug ground while doing this. You're testing 40,000 - 50,000 volts.

Take points wire from box, and with ignition on, tap this wire against a ground. If plug fires, box and coil are good. Check distributor for wiring or malfunction. If plug does not fire, substitute coil for known good coil. If plug now fires, original coil isn't working. If plug still doesn't fire, box or box wiring has problems.

[petek]

Alrighty...

Ignition module -> distributor
violet -> orange
green -> brown
-> black (i.e. the black wire on the distributor is unconnected)

Ignition module -> coil
red -> coil
black -> coil -> ground (I put an extra engine ground at the coil)

I *think* but did not trace, the brown wire on the ignition module is the tach output. If you need, I can search for my Holley ignition module instruction book and verify the tach lead.

[Jack21]

Petek, dumb question. You show ignition module as red wire to coil+, black wire to coil-, and an engine ground also to coil-. Not sure coil primary- is supposed to be grounded, but should go back to the box only. CD's pulse the coil at 460 - 480 volts, as opposed to conventional ignition at 7 - 12 volts.

Black wire on distributor is a ground on distributor advance plate. On the Duraspark, it is present, although the pickup coil is not grounded through the distributor. On the MSD there are only two wires, and no ground. Only rationale for a ground wire would be radio static, or to insure that any induced voltage that creeps in gets grounded to avoid timing errors.

[petek]

Jack,
Never thought of the extra coil ground being a problem. I think I'll ohm out the ground lead from the box and see if it's truly at ground. Hasn't been a problem (yet). Come to think of it, at worst wouldn't the output of the CD be unreferenced to ground ... so grounding one leg wouldn't hurt a thing.

So, ok, WHY would you NOT want to ground one leg out of the CD box?

[Jack21]

P,

Apples & oranges. You must connect the box ground or it won't work at all. In some cases, both the box ground lead, and the box case must be grounded.

My concern was putting a ground-to-block on the coil primary- lead that should go back to the box only. Had I (or you) an internal schematic of the box, it might show that the coil primary- just goes to ground anyway, in which case having a redundant ground wouldn't hurt anything. Without an internal schematic, my gut tells me that you might be shorting out a part of the intermediate voltage (460 - 480v) circuit and damaging the box electronics. I don't know. Just sharing a concern.

[petek]

Jack,

Well.... it's working :-)

My only real concern was creating a ground loop, but the potentials at either end seem close enough that I'm not picking up any sort of problem.

If I get a free minute I'll see if I can figure out what the output of the box looks like (electrically). I'm guessing that one end is at a firm ground, the other going to the CD circuitry. Still... it's easier to boost the voltage if you don't reference the output to ground (heck something as simple as a diode / cap ladder or even simpler with a power astable into a transformer ... hmm... if you went ahead and referenced to ground you might even be able to do it with just a tapped primary ... then rectify it, through it into a 600 V / 10 uf cap then use a high voltage SCR to dump into the primary of the spark coil...)

So little time, so many neat things to investigate.

[Double Venom]

Boy, this is great !!!! I can't wait for you guys to translate this to English!

DV

[dscott]

Wow! you guys think too much.
Don

[Jack21]

P,

OK, OK. I'm a chemical/mechanical (environmental), not electronics.

Here's why I mentioned it at all. A few years back I was playing with some of the mid '70's original Ford ignition pieces. The CR assembly manual had bad poop on wiring this, had me running the distributor pickup coil to ground. The system would work for a while, then quit. Burned out distributor pickup coil. Ford shop manual had correct wiring diagram.

Am sure you ran into this one also. CR assembly manual gives inaccurate info on Lucas wiper motor wiring. Every time motor hits park contact, dead short, blown fuse. Ran separate ground, and park circuit back through a diode.

Sometimes two heads are better than one.

[dscott]

Jack, It took me about 10 fuses before I figured that one out. The manual is actually correct if you read between the lines. They tell you to ground the terminal but they don't say remove the wire form the back of the park switch. That's what is grounded. So for everyone else, remove the blue wire from the back of the park switch on the motor and ground it. Don't run a ground to the switch or it will pop the fuse everytime.
Don

[petek]

Jack,
I'm nearly ready to remove the extra line just because I've just about convinced myself that there is simply no good reason to include the line. Not that I think it's goin' to hurt the box ("think" mind you as I still don't "know") ... but because I'm about 99% sure I'll get better shielding on the twisted pair supply lines.

The analysis gets a little weird, but for shielding purposes it's better to connect the ground to only one end of the cable (the box end in this case). What really kicked it for me was a recent journal article about shielding for noise (which I could remember where I read it...).

I'll see if I can remember to take some readings with the system cold (unpowered) and then again once I get the engine fired back up. If for no other reason than to move one of the old o'scopes out into the garage

Don ... oh we do NOT "think too much"... it's just that it gives us something to do when is too d@mn hot outside to work in the garage or drive the Cobra (100 degrees, 90% humidity today!)

Ed ... translation: hey, don't pull that spark plug wire off while the engine is running and NO it is NOT a good idea to check for spark voltage using the tried and true 9v battery "tongue test"

One of these days I'm going to have to post instructions on building up a Jacobs ladder using a spark coil. I used to make one for Halloween using an old model T coil until I burned out the primary on the coil.

[dscott]

Pete, I have an old "T" coil here. Tell me how to do it. By the way the tongue teths doths work it justh takeths a few dayths for the swelling to go down.

If I can work in 30 below with 22 feet of snow, you can take a little heat! I gotta tell ya test driving in the winter with snot streaming out is so much fun. After about 3 or 4 miles your eyeballs are frozen. Remember dumb and dumber and the mini bike? It's true!
Don

[petek]

Don,

Take two 18" lengths of, oh, say 14 awg copper wire (bare), bend to an "L" shape with about 2" of wire forming the base of the "L". Connect, via the base of the "L",one length to each binding post at the top of the ignition coil. Space the wires about 1/4" apart at the top of the coil and about 2" apart at the far end of the wire. Hook up a 12 volt source to the binding terminals on the side of the ignition coil, adjust the vibrator for a good strong spark.

What should happen is that a spark should be created at base of the wires. Since the spark is warmer than the surrounding air, the spark will rise up the wire. Just like in the old Frankenstein movies

Looking forward to the winter driving tests!

[dscott]

Cool! I'll give it a try. Maybe it will work as a mosquito zapper! They've been horrible this year. Thanks
Don