Researching any info re: Paul Cunningham, Competition Cobra privateer

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

That is why I asked if Lance Coren provided a copy of his "hand-search" document that indicated that Ann was the original owner. You certainly expect Michael to be able to provide a document that would indicate that Paul owned the car in 1963. It seems to me that the 1964 registration application only indicates that Ann owned the wreck in 1964 and does not prove that she owned it earlier than 1964.

Lance Coren was never my expert; I said USC Cowboy's private investigator was using him as his. He provided no proof, but later paperwork did corroborate his discovery of Ann Abiden and Lanse Hasselrig as owners of 2049. There was no evidence of a Paul Cunningham in the DMV files.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Lance Coren was never my expert; I said USC Cowboy's private investigator was using him as his. He provided no proof, but later paperwork did corroborate his discovery of Ann Abiden and Lanse Hasselrig as owners of 2049. There was no evidence of a Paul Cunningham in the DMV files.

Ok, so there is no evidence that Paul owned the car. Evidence shows that Ann is the earliest know owner, but not necessarily the original owner.

Consider this, Shelby American is pursuing a mechanics lien to dispose of the wreck. Here are some possibilities:

1) Ann is the owner as of August 1963. She has a registration renewal application for 1964 that she does not use. Ann finally comes around to Shelby to pick up her car and Shelby American stops pursuing the mechanics lien. Ann can sell the wreck to Lanse.

2) Ann is the owner as of August 1963. She has a registration renewal application for 1964 that she does not use. Shelby American goes through with the mechanics lien and gets the title for the wreck. Shelby American takes the wreck to the junk yard and get a few bucks. After leaving the car abandoned for months, Ann finally shows up at Shelby American and she is told her car has been sold to the junk yard. Ann goes to the junkyard and repurchases CSX2049 from the junkyard. Ann regains the title as well as a second application to register the wreck for 1964. In this case Ann has 2 1964 applications to register the wreck and uses neither of them. Ann can sell the car to Lanse.

3) Ann is the owner as of August 1963. She has a registration renewal application for 1964 that she does not use. Shelby American goes through with the mechanics lien and gets the title for the wreck. Shelby American takes the wreck to the junk yard and gets a few bucks. Ann never shows up to Shelby American or the junk yard. Ann no longer has the wreck or a valid title to the wreck. Well she still has a a registration renewal application for 1964. In this scenario it is impossible for Ann to sell the wreck to Lanse.

4) Someone other than Ann is the owner as of August 1963, maybe Paul, who knows. Shelby American goes through with the mechanics lien and gets the title for the wreck. Shelby American sells the car either directly to Ann or Ann purchases the wreck from the junkyard that Shelby American sold the wreck to. Ann gets the title to the wreck as well as an initial registration application for 1964 that she never uses. Ann can sell the car to Lanse.

Scenario 4 allows for someone other than Ann to be the owner of the car from August 1963 up until the mechanics lien came through. So it is possible that Paul Cunningham was the owner of the car at the time he was racing it, but there are currently no known documents to support this.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

There was no evidence of a Paul Cunningham in the DMV files.

Which is why, I would wager, the notice of lien from Shelby was never seen by his distraught mother. My speculation (and this topic is now all about speculation) is that while Cunningham may have driven the car, he was given access to it perhaps as liberal as having his own keys, but never really owned it.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Which is why, I would wager, the notice of lien from Shelby was never seen by his distraught mother. My speculation (and this topic is now all about speculation) is that while Cunningham may have driven the car, he was given access to it perhaps as liberal as having his own keys, but never really owned it.

I sort of want to root for Michael's father having owned the car.

Now Shelby American knew who the legal owner was. It would be normal procedure for them to bug the legal owner to pick up the wreck on a periodic basis. And thinking about what MrMustang would do, Shelby American is probably invoicing the legal owner a monthly storage fee for their trouble, yet the legal owner is not responsive to picking up their abandoned wreck, nor paying the monthly storage fee. So if Shelby American is going to the trouble of getting a mechanics lien after 4 months, just how likely is it that the legal owner is going to respond if given notice that there is now a mechanics lien filed on the wreck that they have abandoned. How likely is it that owner is going to pay several months of storage fees on a wreck? I am going to say that there is probably a 99% chance that if the legal owner has abandoned the wreck, ignored picking up the wreck and had no intention of paying the monthly storage fees, that Shelby American eventually got the mechanics lien and sent the wreck to the junk yard.

Given that I believe that the most likely outcome is that legal owner had abandoned the wreck and that Shelby American got the mechanics lien, I also believe that it is highly unlikely that Ann Abidin was the legal owner on August 1963. It would make more sense for Ann to buy the wreck from the junk yard. Well I suppose it is possible that if she owned the car back in August of 1963, that she had a change of heart and repurchased the wreck from the junk yard because it was cheaper to do that they to pay months worth of storage fees at Shelby American to get the wreck.

Now if the legal owner just happened to be the distraught widow of Paul Cunningham, who really never wanted to see the car again, I could understand her ignoring Shelby American asking her to pick up the wreck and ignoring the monthly storage fee invoices.

So what happened next, who knows? How about this? Albert says to his mom Ann: "You know how I went down to the junk yard to get a used side mirror for the Edsel stationwagon that I accidently ripped off when backing out of the garage? Well, when I was at the junk yard I saw this really cool Cobra racecar with 'minor' damage that I bet I can easily fix." And the rest is history.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

I sort of want to root for Michael's father having owned the car.

Now Shelby American knew who the legal owner was. It would be normal procedure for them to bug the legal owner to pick up the wreck on a periodic basis. And thinking about what MrMustang would do, Shelby American is probably invoicing the legal owner a monthly storage fee for their trouble, yet the legal owner is not responsive to picking up their abandoned wreck, nor paying the monthly storage fee. So if Shelby American is going to the trouble of getting a mechanics lien after 4 months, just how likely is it that the legal owner is going to respond if given notice that there is now a mechanics lien filed on the wreck that they have abandoned. How likely is it that owner is going to pay several months of storage fees on a wreck? I am going to say that there is probably a 99% chance that if the legal owner has abandoned the wreck, ignored picking up the wreck and had no intention of paying the monthly storage fees, that Shelby American eventually got the mechanics lien and sent the wreck to the junk yard.

Given that I believe that the most likely outcome is that legal owner had abandoned the wreck and that Shelby American got the mechanics lien, I also believe that it is highly unlikely that Ann Abidin was the legal owner on August 1963. It would make more sense for Ann to buy the wreck from the junk yard. Well I suppose it is possible that if she owned the car back in August of 1963, that she had a change of heart and repurchased the wreck from the junk yard because it was cheaper to do that they to pay months worth of storage fees at Shelby American to get the wreck.

Now if the legal owner just happened to be the distraught widow of Paul Cunningham, who really never wanted to see the car again, I could understand her ignoring Shelby American asking her to pick up the wreck and ignoring the monthly storage fee invoices.

So what happened next, who knows? How about this? Albert says to his mom Ann: "You know how I went down to the junk yard to get a used side mirror for the Edsel stationwagon that I accidently ripped off when backing out of the garage? Well, when I was at the junk yard I saw this really cool Cobra racecar with 'minor' damage that I bet I can easily fix." And the rest is history.

All but the last paragraph sounds very logical...

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

So what happened next, who knows? How about this? Albert says to his mom Ann: "You know how I went down to the junk yard to get a used side mirror for the Edsel stationwagon that I accidently ripped off when backing out of the garage? Well, when I was at the junk yard I saw this really cool Cobra racecar with 'minor' damage that I bet I can easily fix." And the rest is history.

Ken,

Are you off your meds, or did you find something buried behind the house that you are looking to claim a CSX number for

Asking for a friend.

Bill S.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Ken,

Are you off your meds, or did you find something buried behind the house that you are looking to claim a CSX number for

Asking for a friend.

Bill S.

No. I am just an "Abnormal CC Member" as usual.

Hmm, does your friend happen to have an Edsel stationwagon?

But seriously, when you had your shop and told "customers" that if they didn't pay all the back monthly storage fees and pick up their abandoned car, you were going to get a mechanics lien, did any of those customers ever pay back monthly storage fees and pick up their car? Or did you just end up getting a mechanics lien and never hear from them again?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

No. I am just an "Abnormal CC Member" as usual.

Hmm, does your friend happen to have an Edsel stationwagon?

But seriously, when you had your shop and told "customers" that if they didn't pay all the back monthly storage fees and pick up their abandoned car, you were going to get a mechanics lien, did any of those customers ever pay back monthly storage fees and pick up their car? Or did you just end up getting a mechanics lien and never hear from them again?

In PA I went straight for the title using the Sections 3352(c) and 3353(c) of the Vehicle Code, once the police sent notice (no charge to me) to the last known owner, I can't remember the length of time required, but I could go to the local notary after summary judgement of the abandonment (again, no cost to me) and it was something like $20-$40 for me to apply for the title. Considering the price of metal at that time, I was always guaranteed to turn a profit. My tag shop of preference was not that far from the shop, and was always open late during the week. The loved me as my paperwork was always pre printed, and correct for whatever I was doing. No fuss, review, stamp, make a payment, and the titles showed up in the mail two weeks later. You've been to my old shop, I always had room for another abandoned car

Bill S.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

In PA I went straight for the title using the Sections 3352(c) and 3353(c) of the Vehicle Code, once the police sent notice (no charge to me) to the last known owner, I can't remember the length of time required, but I could go to the local notary after summary judgement of the abandonment (again, no cost to me) and it was something like $20-$40 for me to apply for the title. Considering the price of metal at that time, I was always guaranteed to turn a profit. My tag shop of preference was not that far from the shop, and was always open late during the week. The loved me as my paperwork was always pre printed, and correct for whatever I was doing. No fuss, review, stamp, make a payment, and the titles showed up in the mail two weeks later. You've been to my old shop, I always had room for another abandoned car

Bill S.

Anyway my point is here that a shop, like yours or Shelby American does not just hold onto a car without trying to get a hold of the owner. The shop will be contacting the owner if the car appears to be abandoned. In MrMustang's case would you wait 4 months before trying to get the title? I am not sure MrMustang would be that patient, but apparently Shelby American was that patient. The letter says that they contacted the DMV, they know who the legal owner is and wanted to pursue a mechanics lien. It appears that the letter was probably to a lawyer. That seems like Shelby American is dotting their i's and crossing their t's to make sure that they can dispose of the wreck without any legal problems later. The wreck in 1967 was in as crashed condition. Shelby American was not removing parts before sending the wreck to the junk yard probably to get full scrap value for it. Keep in mind it is much simpler to call up the owner periodically to ask them to pick up the wreck than to get a lawyer involved. So when Michael is saying that his family was never contacted by Shelby about getting the wreck back, it would appear to me that if his mom is the legal owner, she is ignoring the calls and letters from Shelby, OR his family is not the legal owner of the car as found out by Shelby through the DMV. Is it possible that the DMV had a mix up and told Shelby American the wrong name and contact for the legal owner? That sounds unlikely if Shelby American contacted the bank, about the loan for CSX2049 as that would have confirmed the name and contact of the legal owner.

It is also a bit odd that Michael did not make an effort to go over to Shelby American after a week or less and ask to get the wreck back himself, but maybe he is busy dealing with a distraught mother who needs to deal with a funeral and settling an estate. Still is Michael just going to go for months or more without asking Shelby American are they done with the wreck yet?

Anyway if Shelby American got the mechanics lien and sent the wreck to a junk yard, the wreck became the property of Shelby American and then the property of the junk yard. In that case if Paul was the legal owner at the time of the crash, the Cunningham family was no longer the legal owner after the mechanics lien went through.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

... deleted some stuff ...

You've been to my old shop, I always had room for another abandoned car

Bill S.

Yeah there was room inside for abandoned cars, a semi-trailer truck, plus various mustangs and the occassional Cobra replica that you were cleaning up to flip. Plus you were running a body shop too.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

No. I am just an "Abnormal CC Member" as usual.

Hmm, does your friend happen to have an Edsel stationwagon?

I would point out there is nothing wrong with having an Edsel station wagon.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I would point out there is nothing wrong with having an Edsel station wagon.

That explains a lot about your "formative years"

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I would point out there is nothing wrong with having an Edsel station wagon.

Kinda sexy in a strange way.JMHO

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Ken,

Are you off your meds, or did you find something buried behind the house that you are looking to claim a CSX number for

Asking for a friend.

Bill S.

Interesting. While walking through my front yard to get the mail and trash cans just a few minutes ago, I saw something sticking up in the dirt. Luckily I always carry a shovel with me in case I encounter something I want to dig up.

And what do you know? After cleaning this off, I wonder if this might be a pedal from an early worm and sector Cobra with some sort of prototype Cobra or Shelby logo on it. I believe that later Cobras pedals came with some other logo most likely designed by Pete Brock.



At this point I think it best that I don't show the other side of the pedal as I would not want to reveal at this time whether or not that side of the pedal has a 4 digit number on it in the 2000-2125 range.

Hmm, I wonder what else might be buried in my yard.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Hmm, I wonder what else might be buried in my yard.

Jimmy Hoffa.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Lance Coren was never my expert; I said USC Cowboy's private investigator was using him as his. He provided no proof, but later paperwork did corroborate his discovery of Ann Abiden and Lanse Hasselrig as owners of 2049. There was no evidence of a Paul Cunningham in the DMV files.

Paul purchased a race car, not a street vehicle. IMO, it did not require a DMV registration as the car was never operated on the street. Also, note that I previously declared that Lance Coren was never an expert for me, I had a very different expert assisting me, one that is not named in any of these discussion threads.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

Paul purchased a race car, not a street vehicle. IMO, it did not require a DMV registration as the car was never operated on the street. Also, note that I previously declared that Lance Coren was never an expert for me, I had a very different expert assisting me, one that is not named in any of these discussion threads.

Maybe your unnamed expert can get you a copy of the documents from the court case involving the title if the records are available to the public.

Maybe your expert could also see if the Shelby American controller from April 1964 is still alive and interview him to see if he recalls a mechanics lean on a wreck they were storing for over 4 months.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Maybe your unnamed expert can get you a copy of the documents from the court case involving the title if the records are available to the public.

Maybe your expert could also see if the Shelby American controller from April 1964 is still alive and interview him to see if he recalls a mechanics lean on a wreck they were storing for over 4 months.

I have been unable to communicate with my "expert" for over 5 years, I believe he died as the last time I saw him he did not look well. He was not a personal friend so I did not feel comfortable with nor thought it was my right to question his health. At that time he did assist me in acquiring a period correct 289ci engine (January 3, 1963 manufacture) and a front clip for a 289ci Mark II. I originally had in mind to rebuild a car, that now is not possible due to my age and health issues.

I am checking into how I can review or obtain the court records through the California Superior Court system. Lot's of red-tape so far. Anyone out there want to send me a copy use michael@heinekegroup.com.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

I have been unable to communicate with my "expert" for over 5 years, I believe he died as the last time I saw him he did not look well. He was not a personal friend so I did not feel comfortable with nor thought it was my right to question his health. At that time he did assist me in acquiring a period correct 289ci engine (January 3, 1963 manufacture) and a front clip for a 289ci Mark II. I originally had in mind to rebuild a car, that now is not possible due to my age and health issues.

I am checking into how I can review or obtain the court records through the California Superior Court system. Lot's of red-tape so far. Anyone out there want to send me a copy use michael@heinekegroup.com.

If CompClassics is familiar with the trial, maybe he knows information like a case number, date, court house or something that would be useful in getting a copy of the information.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

I am checking into how I can review or obtain the court records through the California Superior Court system. Lot's of red-tape so far. Anyone out there want to send me a copy use michael@heinekegroup.com.

You might want to try going directly to the court reporter's agency that the lawyers used not only for the trial and hearing transcripts but, most importantly, pre-trial witness depositions. Contact that agency, or its successor, and see if they'll sell them to you. There's a ton of stuff in depositions that never make it in to a court record (which has probably been lost or destroyed by now) and reading the witness depos just might give you some answers, and maybe some peace of mind. Try shooting Ned a polite PM and, in your most conciliatory and plaintive Mother May I tone, ask him if he'll tell you the reporting agencies that they used. That may be a short cut to getting what you want.