Follow up on ERA717

[RICK LAKE]

Guys, I skimmed the thread. I see a couple of repairs where tryed. I would have followed the same course of repair on this motor to this point.
Here's my process I would follow. Oil consumpion test with the correct oil weight called for. If we don't know I would go with a 10-40 of 15-40 oil. This motor should be warmed up before moving. Look where the car was sitting for oil leaking on the ground. Oil dye added to motor to catch any leaks from gaskets or seals. Compression test and leak down tests are not going to be any good if the oil is leaking through valves and seals. The numbers will be high for compression and reading 0 for leak down. No help. I would do 1 more test of pressurizing the motor block if the intake seals are not leaking. I am looking for air sound pushing out into a head or intake. This is low pressure of no more than 5-10 psi. It's hard to do this hot with the motor just running. Again looking for an oil leak into the intake or cylinders.
Let's say no leak is found, If we have a carb dumping fuel into the motor, the cylinders are washed out. 100 miles and the bores and rings are done. Blue smoke special. Rebuild.
Here's what I would do next, pull the motor.
Does some one have pictures of this pitting? Motors sit for years or months and start and run with no major oil suckage. I know of farm tractors that sit this way for 10 months. They are gas motors not diesel. Smoke on startup but gone after couple of minutes.
Depending on where the pits are and we have no way to see how deep they are in the cylinder wall, I would go with 2 problems, cylinder wall are too far out of round. The high spots show where the head bolts are pulling on the block. It's not common but the differents between a cold and hot block will cause a problem. Expansion, iron goes about .0008" to .001"+ alum more.
My main issue is the Total sealing gapless piston rings. I have had problems with them years ago when they first came out. They can suck the oil though the valve guides and valve stem seals that are in prefect specs. This is OEM seals and swapped to pos seal with the ring that seals tighter to the valve stem. The vacuum of the motor was 15-17 hg. The cam was not OEM numbers and not .600" lift either. Is it possible we have the wrong PCV valve on the motor and it is allowed to build up pressure?
We have had 3-5 different driver drive this car. The word normal driving leaves a LARGE differents. I get this every day at work.
Here's what I would do, hook up a vacuum gauge to the motor. Lets see if we have a valve or pressure reading. Could be about 0 plus or minus a couple of Hg's. If this is fine, I am pulling the motor apart and start with the pitting depth and the bore out of round readings. I would also flip the heads and check for valves sealing on the seats over night. Valve stem end play, we see a major oil sucking problem. Are the plugs all carboned out in all 8 cylinders? Why heads are off doing a bore check on block in 8 spots from bottom to top in 1/2" checks. This takes time to get right and do right. If the heads hold and the block bores are in spec. I am throwing out those total seal piston seals and using a good conventional moly ring set with the correct end gaps to seal and the gaps setup to be 180 degrees off each other and same with oil rings. Use a glaze bead hone tool and run it up and down the cylinder 3-5 strokes to ruff up the walls. Reassemble the motor and breakin with the normal 10-15 minutes with breakin oil. drain and refill with what you are going to run down the road. I like a 10-40 or 15-40 rotella and a bottle of Lucas oil suppliment. This is to be added to the motor running and slowly to mix throughout. You can do the repair in the car on blocks. I like the out of car as easier. 250 mile breakin. and check the oil level. No black smoke coming from side pipes from a rich carb. I will save the carb discussion for another year. If this still is sucking oil, I'm looking for cracks.

Guys this is a nice club and everyone wants to help. I got a PM on this. I am tired and just giving the best info on problems I have had or the last 40+ years of motor building and repairs. I have had a couple of motors that broke my back and couldn't be fixed. It was said that this motor was a cheap rebuild and it has caused problems. I have not heard of these builders here as FE builders. You say they are excellent, This is what we need, Pros with a good rep. Jamo has pulled out the big stick and said enough. Let's fix the motor and move on. In the evening lets have a cold one. Bill you have my number. Rick L.

[madmaxx]

This problem is solved until we hear otherwise. It post like this that make a ZR1 very appealing.

[fdjake]

Rick,

Thank you for taking the time to respond here. I ran Joe Gibbs Racing 15/40 Hot Rod oil in the car while I owned it. (Incidentally, that was the FIRST question Bob Mason asked me when I called him about this engine) I have a video of the car running at idle with absolutely no smoke coming from the side pipes. Yet the car used 1 qt of oil every 150 miles. I'll be happy to send you the video. When the car went to ERA they found exactly what Bill found, a torn intake gasket....They actually saved it to show me. At that point they too thought they had it licked with just a gasket set because the car ran so well. Peter asked me if he could drive the car to gauge any oil consumption issues still present....After driving the car over 400 miles, Peter called and told me the car STILL used 1 Qt of oil every 150 miles but ran PERFECT.
His exact words were....The car runs beautiful, I'd drive it for the rest of the season then pull the motor and look at the rings. On a side note....I found a bottle of Lucas Oil Additive in the car when I picked it up at ERA so apparently they did EXACTLY what you recommended here.
Once I had the car back, I too confirmed the oil usage ERA had noted. At that point it went to Bob Mason. It took him literally 15 minutes to find the pitting in the cylinders. I watched him scope the engine. I do not have a photo of the pitting but I did provide Bill with Bob Mason's contact info so he could talk directly to him. Bill asked me for that info but never bothered to call.

[D111]

ayyiyi..... at this point I'm actually hoping that the car grows a quart of oil every few hundred miles :-)

Originally Posted by fdjake

Rick,

Thank you for taking the time to respond here. I ran Joe Gibbs Racing 15/40 Hot Rod oil in the car while I owned it. (Incidentally, that was the FIRST question Bob Mason asked me when I called him about this engine) I have a video of the car running at idle with absolutely no smoke coming from the side pipes. Yet the car used 1 qt of oil every 150 miles. I'll be happy to send you the video. When the car went to ERA they found exactly what Bill found, a torn intake gasket....They actually saved it to show me. At that point they too thought they had it licked with just a gasket set because the car ran so well. Peter asked me if he could drive the car to gauge any oil consumption issues still present....After driving the car over 400 miles, Peter called and told me
the car STILL used 1 Qt of oil every 150 miles but ran PERFECT.
His exact words were....The car runs beautiful, I'd drive it for the rest of the season then pull the motor and look at the rings. On a side note....I found a bottle of Lucas Oil Additive in the car when I picked it up at ERA so apparently they did EXACTLY what you recommended here.
Once I had the car back, I too confirmed the oil usage ERA had noted. At that point it went to Bob Mason. It took him literally 15 minutes to find the pitting in the cylinders. I watched him scope the engine. I do not have picture of the pitting but I did provide Bill with Bob Mason's contact info so he could talk directly to him. Bill asked me for that info but never bothered to call Bob.

[mrmustang]

Guys, car is sitting in my garage, I am 1,100 miles away till Tuesday evening. On the drive home from my friend Steve's shop, we put 22 miles on it up and down some large hills with Steve following in my Explorer, no smoke or blow by was noticed at all, not at start up, not on acceleration or on deceleration, under some serious load , and downshifted into lower gears in an attempt to find leaks in the exhaust. No back fire, cackle, just a nice sounding tone through the exhaust.. There is a show at Freehold Ford this coming Saturday, it is 128 miles each way and my plan is to drive the cobra down weather permitting. That plus any seat time I can get between Wednesday morning and then I'll be adding mileage and notating my findings then, again, good, bad, or otherwise.........Until then, the car sits under cover, awaiting my return.......Has been since Friday around 1:30pm.......


Bill S.

[madmaxx]

99% of Rick post end after a long dissertation with " time for complete rebuild". If in question disassemble and rebuild. 100% of Fdjake end in rebuild.

My money is on its fixed as it sits after reading all the data, compression good etc. he did find a smoking gun.

I checked my lexus oil today, 6800 miles and the oil still shows full, what the heck, it has to use some oil it has 100k miles on the car. Better rebuild.

[D111]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

There is a show at Freehold Ford this coming Saturday, it is 128 miles each way and my plan is to drive the cobra down weather permitting.

Bill S.

Bill I believe the show Is next Sunday, Route 9 Jersey?

it's not a Far Ride for me I will photograph and verify your dipstick Pull.. .

[fdjake]

Madmaxx,

Thanks for your VALUABLE insights into a car you've never LAID EYES ON....Never mind actually had anything to do with.

You know what they say about opinions right??

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by D111

Bill I believe the show Is next Sunday, Route 9 Jersey?

it's not a Far Ride for me I will photograph and verify your dipstick Pull.. .

I knew from talking with Bob and Vinny (Mongo) that it was next weekend, I've booked it on my calendar either way. Look forward to seeing you there (weather permitting as the rain date is the next Sunday the 22nd).


On another note, got rid of the anemic "period correct" air cleaner, replaced it with a K&N 66-3040 extreme top unit I've used on ERA234 (chassis dyno tests showing it good for 22hp at the rear wheels, so food for thought for those reading this) in the past. With it's drop base, it clears the ERA hood with room to spare. Should really make a difference in how the car runs now that the engine can actually breath.

This is how I calculated it with the help of K&N some 10+ years ago

Using the simple formula

A= effective filter area
CID=engine displacement
RPM=maximum RPM expected

112.96" is what I need if I am going to turn 5,500rpms

Using the CFM formula of height X diameter x 6 x 3.14 and if I did this correctly, I now have 791.28cfm of filter material, not including the extreme filter top which K&N states is 500cfm as a stand alone


Again without pulling the April 10th, 1968 cast 428 block, and doing my due diligence as already documented above (sorry, regardless of Pete's continued insistence, no cylinder wall pitting was found), the only thing left to do to see if the issues are taken care of or whether I'll be pulling the engine and replacing rings and such over the winter.

As for the insinuation of bad rings (Total Seal or otherwise), since Pete and I do not have the build records for the engine (unless of course Pete has them and never gave them to me, along with the phone number for the original owner), I'm taking things one step at a time and investigating everything for myself and not taking anything for granted. Sometimes it really is the simplest things that get overlooked, for me, I'm a bit more fussy about it and need to experience things for myself. Hence the original reason why I started this thread, and why I continue to do things in a hands on, logical and methodical manner. After all, it is my time and money, and the end of the typical driving season (most who know me know for me it never ends ) is not yet here.

As usual, only time will tell.


Bill S.

[blueoval_bowtie]

Very interesting thread Bill. Let us know how you make out this weekend.

Steve

[madmaxx]

:lol:
:cry:

Originally Posted by fdjake

madmaxx,

thanks for your valuable insights into a car you've never laid eyes on....never mind actually had anything to do with.

You know what they say about opinions right??

[mrmustang]

Got 69 miles (in stop and go traffic) on the car today (so far), 97 degrees and 65-70% humidity, I tried to break it, but it kept going and going. I'm the one who wimped out and had to come home to cool off

No oil usage detected at this time.

Will attempt to go back out later this afternoon if I have the time as I was hoping to put at least 100-150 miles on it today.


Bill S.

[marcalan]

Fantastic, good to hear!

[mrmustang]

Just got back in, have driven 155 miles today, speeds between stop and go city, to highway (25-70mph mixed), car has not yet shown any signs of oil usage. Have meetings in the AM, but will try to get back out in the afternoon to put some more miles on the car. As stated above, temps this late morning into the mid afternoon were in the upper 90's (94 when we left the house, 97 when we got back on the first trip) with 60% and higher humidity levels. This afternoons drive was only 88 degrees when I left 82 degrees when I just got back home with humidity around 55%. Car ran the entire time like a champ, no overheating issues, no vapor lock, not even a hiccup......


More as I add miles to the car.


Bill S.

PS: I had a really nice 25 minute conversation with Bob Mason (9/9/2013 at 11:45am), he did state he found one small pit in the bore (yes, in the skirt travel area) of one cylinder. When describing it he used the following "it was tiny, I might have been able to feel it with a dental tool". He explained how he saw smoke coming out of the side pipe on the passenger side, and that is why he pulled the plugs on that side (as seen in my pictures). He also explained that he was asked to throw out some numbers, and he gave a worst case scenario using the words "it may need" to be torn down, or it "might need to be sleeved if it does not clean up with another hone of the cylinder". He was not that concerned with such a small item and did not honestly believe it was the cause of the smoke or oil consumption. Since he was not allowed to dig any deeper due to the constraints that Peter put on him (not leaving the car so he could check things cold, not wanting to spend a lot of funds on this car), he was not surprised with what I told him I found (torn intake gasket, leaking valve covers and oil pan), nor with what I have done in my own methodical way, nor the way I am now testing those repairs. He was genuine, quite candid, he did tell me that Peter was a stand up guy (which I already knew since I bought a car from him) and did come down and pay him some money for his time once the car was sold. Again, I will be reporting my long term finds with him, just in case I do end up having an oil consumption issue with more mileage on my repairs.

[mrmustang]

Rain today, no updates to report.

Will try to get out tomorrow and put more mileage on the car.



Bill S.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Rain today, no updates to report.
Bill S.

Raining on September 12th? That's depressing.

[fdjake]

Congrats Bill!!!!!

Honestly...I'm very happy for you and glad you talked to Bob Mason. You were 100% right in your assessment of the car from day one and you now have a real beauty!!!

Enjoy it Bill.

End of story in my book!

Pete

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Raining on September 12th? That's depressing.

Not if he's reigning, which it appears he is.

[madmaxx]

Rock on!!
Ancient chinese proverb say you used wrong dipstick. You need use dipstick located on engine not dipstick located behind steering wheel to check oil!!!!!!!!!

[kevins2]

Bill,

It's going to be a beautiful weekend in our area - low 70s and sunny, so I'm sure you'll have a great time driving around. Since mine isn't on the road yet, I'm gonna have to get the Harley out.

Enjoy,

Kevin