What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[olddog]

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by olddog

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

Patent issues I believe?

They'll be 3D printing them soon enough.


Ps. I like it when Patrick's in these moods. It entertains me.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Patent issues I believe?

They'll be 3D printing them soon enough.

Patent issues? Aren't they all just duplicating a sideoiler or 427 top-oiler engine, which was originally built roughly circa 1962-1964 (or whatever year)? Don't patents sunset after 20 years? I'm sure someone will correct me.

I just think between building Kirkham Coupes and Cobras and taking on the Shelby orders, they're just too busy for a alloy block. They do make billet aluminum Girling calipers now.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Patent issues? Aren't they all just duplicating a sideoiler or 427 top-oiler engine, which was originally built roughly circa 1962-1964 (or whatever year)? Don't patents sunset after 20 years? I'm sure someone will correct me.

I just think between building Kirkham Coupes and Cobras and taking on the Shelby orders, they're just too busy for a alloy block. They do make billet aluminum Girling calipers now.

It was a problem with sleeving the blocks. There was a patent problem on how they do it or the sleeves they used.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Patent issues? Aren't they all just duplicating a sideoiler or 427 top-oiler engine, which was originally built roughly circa 1962-1964 (or whatever year)? Don't patents sunset after 20 years? I'm sure someone will correct me.

I just think between building Kirkham Coupes and Cobras and taking on the Shelby orders, they're just too busy for a alloy block. They do make billet aluminum Girling calipers now.

Patent issues with (darton?) cylinder sleeves? I'm NOT across it, just rumours and whispers. Others are better placed to advise.

I certainly was keen to build my engine using one of their blocks, but how long can one wait...

[Barry_R]

Lord I wish it was "just a small deposit".
Much closer to full retail price...
It is not BBM (he makes a perfectly fine part, but does not sell directly to me)

I felt like I had no choice but to get in line...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Lord I wish it was "just a small deposit".
Much closer to full retail price...
It is not BBM (he makes a perfectly fine part, but does not sell directly to me)

I felt like I had no choice but to get in line...

Well I'm certainly sorry to hear that. On Dimis' patent thingy, it's not my area of expertise, but I can at least look it up for you geniuses.

US Patent for Cylinder sleeve with coolant groove Patent (Patent # 6,799,541 issued October 5, 2004) - Justia Patents Search

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Lord I wish it was "just a small deposit".
Much closer to full retail price...
It is not BBM (he makes a perfectly fine part, but does not sell directly to me)

I felt like I had no choice but to get in line...

Hey Patrick <insert emoji of "wiggling bare a$$">

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Hey Patrick <insert emoji of "wiggling bare a$$">

Yes, yes, yes. I used to have that emoji from my local Cobra club, but they upgraded the forum interface and took it away. Barry seems to be taking it well, though. I think I would be a bit nonplussed.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Patent issues with (darton?) cylinder sleeves? I'm NOT across it, just rumours and whispers. Others are better placed to advise.

I certainly was keen to build my engine using one of their blocks, but how long can one wait...

I talked with Dave about this when I stopped in for a tour while I was in the area in August. He said that Kirkham originally had set up a deal with Darton, but then the CEO of Darton decided that the deal was not in his interest at a later point. However David has a different cylinder liner idea based on a Bristol engine design. The current problem is that they are just too busy at this point with other work to do the redesign work on the block.

Also while I was they were machining an aluminum block for Shelby, so presumably Shelby delivered at least one block this year.

[jkg2101]

In response to the original question on this thread, I am currently building my kirkham (finally received it!).

I purchased an assembled 'short block' from Blair Patrick (who I might add is very knowledgeable and did a great job, and is a true gentleman). He and I agreed right from the beginning to go with an iron block. I was able to get one of the BBM's in iron.

I am not thrilled about the offshore casting, but doing my part to support USA businesses.

I did not and don't personally see any reasonable reason to want aluminum. i recognize it may be more prone to some build trouble, and it is more expensive. I honestly don't think it affects resale price (but if I was in this for resale, then I have other problems anyway...)

I agree that many here have admitted it is more emotion and less logic that lead them to aluminum. My car will be every bit as nice with a well done sideoiler build in iron.


I do run aluminum heads and intake, for a variety of reasons (weight savings and nothing comparable in iron available).

justin

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by jkg2101

In response to the original question on this thread, I am currently building my kirkham (finally received it!).

I purchased an assembled 'short block' from Blair Patrick (who I might add is very knowledgeable and did a great job, and is a true gentleman). He and I agreed right from the beginning to go with an iron block. I was able to get one of the BBM's in iron.

I am not thrilled about the offshore casting, but doing my part to support USA businesses.

I did not and don't personally see any reasonable reason to want aluminum. i recognize it may be more prone to some build trouble, and it is more expensive. I honestly don't think it affects resale price (but if I was in this for resale, then I have other problems anyway...)

I agree that many here have admitted it is more emotion and less logic that lead them to aluminum. My car will be every bit as nice with a well done sideoiler build in iron.


I do run aluminum heads and intake, for a variety of reasons (weight savings and nothing comparable in iron available).

justin

Just facts first. I think I counted 8 owners of alloy blocks on this thread who said that the reason for buying an alloy block was weight. Your BBM weighs 250 lbs and my Shelby alloy block is 125 lbs. Pond's alloy block is 135 lbs. So the weight savings is NOT EMOTIONAL to those 8 alloy block buyers. You couldn't find any "reasonable reason" for alloy, but at least 8 actual buyers on this thread found "weight savings" as reasonable.

Personally, I think most of us here bought a Kirkham for the liberal use of lightweight aluminum throughout the car. And some of us said that installing an iron block in a virtually all aluminum Cobra makes/made no sense.

Finally, weight savings wasn't the only reason I bought my Shelby aluminum block. The Shelby block was made in America and, at the time of purchase, was about $1,000-$1,500 more than an iron block. So, the Shelby block price wasn't a major factor for me, relative to the entire Kirkham build. Also, the Shelby block could be made into a 526 or 527 one day, if i so desired. The other blocks at the time couldn't go that big. One last reason, semi-related, is that the Shelby block was considered "beefier" and had the Shelby-specific head studs, which allowed (for lack of a better verb/term) the Shelby alloy block to withstand a higher RPM before going "kablooey."

So my alloy purchase had zero to do with emotion and had everything in the world to do with weight savings, price, beefier build, and potentially bigger cubic inches than competitors.

As for resale, 66GTK, who seems to buy and sell quite a few Cobras, mostly ERA's I'd speculate, stated that a Cobra with an alloy block is more desirable or sell for a higher price than one with an iron block. And all other things being equal when evaluating a Cobra for purchase, I'd chose the Cobra with the alloy block too.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by jkg2101

In response to the original question on this thread, I am currently building my kirkham (finally received it!).

I purchased an assembled 'short block' from Blair Patrick (who I might add is very knowledgeable and did a great job, and is a true gentleman). He and I agreed right from the beginning to go with an iron block. I was able to get one of the BBM's in iron.

I am not thrilled about the offshore casting, but doing my part to support USA businesses.

I did not and don't personally see any reasonable reason to want aluminum. i recognize it may be more prone to some build trouble, and it is more expensive. I honestly don't think it affects resale price (but if I was in this for resale, then I have other problems anyway...)

I agree that many here have admitted it is more emotion and less logic that lead them to aluminum. My car will be every bit as nice with a well done sideoiler build in iron.


I do run aluminum heads and intake, for a variety of reasons (weight savings and nothing comparable in iron available).

justin

What kind of power did the engine make. What were the specs. Did you also use BBM heads.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Ps. I like it when Patrick's in these moods. It entertains me.

In schools today, educators call it "oppositional defiant disorder" (ODD) and give the kids meds. Patrick already take too many meds. He must, because he thinks his Cobra looks good in Desert Storm Camo beige and "burps up" ancient Buddhist philosophies.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by olddog

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

We are doing that right now with LS engines. Machining them from billet. The first one is done and has been shipped to a customer. FE engines? Same problem as the castings. Not enough interest to spend 6 months designing the block and developing a program for it to make it cost effective. Kirkham did it already on a vertical. That is a pretty hard way to do it. Maybe he will make more and sell them?