Has Anyone Dry Sumped an FE?

[RodKnock]

Is this a low or high maintenance proposition? What equipment did you use? Where did you mount the tank? Have you experienced the oil being sucked out of the bottom of the engine to the top? Thank you for any input.

[RICK LAKE]

Rod Knock Aviaid sells the complete system for a FE cobra, mounts, pump tank, drive, belt, It bolts on the r/s of the motor lower corner. They are now maken a oil tank for the R/s front fender. About $3,000.00 complete. Rick Lake

[RodKnock]

Rick, Thanks for the info. I actuaally viisited the Aviaid site last night. Nice catalog. Do you have this system installed?

[4pipes]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Rick, Thanks for the info. I actuaally viisited the Aviaid site last night. Nice catalog. Do you have this system installed?

I have a dry sump system similar to the Aviaid shown on their web page. Only one drawback from my experience. There are seals between the stages of the oil pump that can "weep" as they take a set during the many heat cycles. It becomes yet another FE oil leak. Lots of positives that have been discussed on this and other forums. One other drawback is that the large volume of oil takes a longer time to come up to temperature.

[RodKnock]

Thanks, Dave. That's what I was looking for. If dry sump systems are an another potential source for leaks, then that's something to think really hard about.

[4pipes]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Thanks, Dave. That's what I was looking for. If dry sump systems are an another potential source for leaks, then that's something to think really hard about.

Though I'm not personally familiar with the problem, an external oil pump does solve the early distributor gear wear problem caused by cold oil startup with high volume internal oil pumps. Do a search and you can learn about that issue. Then you can weigh the positives (many) of a dry sump system vs the complexity and cost of an external oil pump, 6 lines, and a tank.

I bought my car with the system already installed and I like it. I installed a sight glass to visually check oil level. I just can't speak from experience relative to a standard FE setup.

[Jamo]

Dave...true if you're using a solid roller cam and a bronze gear. Not just cold starts...the pump is running off the gear, and bronze just doesn't have the durability for that.

Pat and I had essentially the same motors, except for the dry sump on his motor. I blew bronze gears...he didn't.

That's why I finally changed over to a flat tappet.

[4pipes]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Dave...true if you're using a solid roller cam and a bronze gear. Not just cold starts...the pump is running off the gear, and bronze just doesn't have the durability for that.

Pat and I had essentially the same motors, except for the dry sump on his motor. I blew bronze gears...he didn't.

That's why I finally changed over to a flat tappet.

Jamo, why is a bronze gear required with a solid roller, I never did understand that? Isn't the oil pump driven from the bottom of the distributor such that any gear material can be used with the cam interface?

BTW, I went to a flat tappet also when I had the engine detuned.

[Jamo]

Simply a matter of them not pressing a iron gear at the end of the solid roller cams like they do for other fitments. Evidently, they do that for the FE hydraulic rollers but not for the solid rollers (must be a low volume thing comparatively speaking). So the bronze gear is used and becomes the sacrificial lamb instead of the expensive cam (has nothing to do with oil pump other than the fact that the bronze gear can't hold up to that extra strain). In racing, no big deal...they can swap the gears out every time they tear down the motor (often).

Today...there may be polymer gears for FE solid roller applications. Not sure they've been run enough to prove long term durability just yet. People keep posting how they have no problems using steel or iron gears in their FEs with roller cams, and then we discover they are running hydraulic roller cams rather than a solid roller.

If it was me, and I wanted to run a solid roller in an FE for the street and had to run a bronze gear...I'd go with a dry sump.

[4pipes]

Thanks, I know where I was wrong in my thinking, I thought the bronze gear was on the distributor! Now I understand why it's such a big deal when it wears out.

[Jamo]

No...it IS on the distributor, and it is a pain in the ass when you loose teeth while you're out cruising. It's use is dictated by the lack of an iron gear being pressed on the end of the cam.

The car just dies...especially fun at the top of Carson Pass (even with a pre-drilled spare and a gear puller).

[RICK LAKE]

RodKnock There are a couple of other points I didn't have time to add. 1st If you go racing, some tracks will not allow a dry sump system. There reason is they don't want 12 quarts of oil all over the track if a line breaks. You will need a vacuum pump also with the system to help control oil mist and pressure in the motor. Vacuum pumps are go for another 10-30 hp. They help the rings seal better in the block. 2nd I have talked to many people and the leaking between the pump housing is not common. Make sure you add the screens in the lines to the inlets to protect the pump. Location of the tank is the other problem, some people put them in the trunk of the car and run 2 large lines to the front of the car. Some people mount the tank in the passenger foot well. 1 guy has his mounted behind the pass seat. I like the R/S fender idea BUT cutting up a $6,000.00 paint job has me with a problem. I have seen one cobra with this setup on speedvision couple of years ago. May have been a comp car, but was an FE motor. The problem with my car is the P/S pump is located where the dry sump pump will go. I can mount the P/S pump to the back of the Dry sump pump with an adapter from Aviaid. My crank trigger for the EFI system is also mount in this corner and is getting way to tight to fit everything. A wet sump system my be the answer. Saves the distributor from the 120 psi oil pump stress when starting up and racing. I still think the dry sump is the way to go. I think they sell a heater for the oil tank you can plug in to help keep the oil a little thinner on startups. Tire warmers are next!!! Rick Lake

[RICK LAKE]

Jamo Don't get mad at me. Have you looked at the polymer gears for your distributor? They are harder than steel without any wear problems. I can give you the guy number I got them from direct. The other question is the amount of oil that goes directly to the point between the 2 gears (cam and Distrib) are you getting enought? You didn't say how fast you go through a gear but, it will waste a nice ride. My feeling is you can never have too much oil going to some parts of the motor, rod bearing, mains bearings, timing chain and cam plate, distributor gear to cam. The few motors left that run roller cam shaft and distributors have oil spraying on the gears. It mays sense to me. Rick Lake

[Jamo]

Rick...I made it exceedingly clear that I switched to a flat tappet two years ago. Posted that in several threads, and you've posted every time to indicate you've read them..

So why ask me the same questions every time? I specifically referred to the polymer gears above, didn't I?

Not angry...just, oh hell...nevermind.

[RodKnock]

Rick, thanks for the info. Every morsel is appreciated. In my case, the dry sump system might go into a Kirkham. The location of the oil tank seems like the easy part. The passenger side of the engine compartment has a good location for it. If you buy the Aviaid setup, does the vacuum pump come with the kit? Where is it mounted within the system? Can you explain a little about the 120psi stress on the distributor? Can this be mitigated somehow? I would probably use an MSD billet distributor for the car, but that might make no difference.

[xlr8or]

The 120 PSI stress he mentioned is the oil pressure on cold startup. Because the oil pump is driven off the distributor the high volume/high pressure oil pumps add to the stress/wear of the distributor gears.
Many people have gone back to the standard oil pumps that run at lower pressure/volume to relieve some of the stress.

[Jerry Clayton]

You won't need a vacume pump--your system just needs to be set up with the scavage capacity ratio to pressure pump volume and proper venting/breather balance between the engine and oil tank--there will be a pressure reduction in the crankcase as the scavage pumps will be pumping oil/air to the tank which must be vented and the crankcase needs to be vented/balanced to the tank, not to the atmospere

Aviaid makes very good products, they were the leader in the oil system modifications and everyone else copied them

Jerry

[Jamo]

Rodknock...if you go with a dry sump, and use an external oil pump, the distributor gear issue is moot. It is also moot if you use anything but a solid roller cam and a bronze gear.

[4pipes]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Rodknock...if you go with a dry sump, and use an external oil pump, the distributor gear issue is moot. It is also moot if you use anything but a solid roller cam and a bronze gear.

Hey Jamo, I've got one other question for you:
Why is there a difference in wear between a solid/roller and a hydraulic/roller?

[Jamo]

With regaqrd to the distributor gears, you can get hydraulic roller cams for FEs that will accept an iron gear on the distributor...so that is an obvious big difference. As I (and Rick) noted, you can try polymer gears on both...Chevy BB guys have used them for a few years, but I'm not sure on long duration tests by anyone with an FE yet. The big advantage (over flat tappets) both offer with longer ramps is a bit wider peak torque range, and better wear. At some point, a flat tappet cam will simply flatten out over time from the pounding...not to mention the chance of doing the same thing when breakin is not performed properly.

The rollers on the tappets (whether solid or hydraulic) simply do away with the pounding...and breakin is essentially a non-issue. I'm not sure one necessarily wears better than the other (presuming the solid roller cam valve adjustment is maintained properly). But that's the thing...less maintenance with the hydraulic roller cam (as with any hydraulic cam...little or no adjustment). The solid roller (like a flat tappet) will run at higher rpms (although that margin of difference has been decreased to where it means little) than the hydraulic version. Not sure that's a big consideration with a BB FE.

Keith has been doing wonderous things with hydraulic roller cams in FEs...probably the hot setup for the street where easy maintenance is desired.

One thing about roller lifters...they need oil. You've introduced needle bearings into the mix. Shouldn't let them idle at a steady rpm too much...they need splash. Some lifters have better oiling built in versus others. I can tell you from experience that if and when one of those little basturd needle bearings lets go, the remains of the roller lifter become a forked cutting tool on that asspensive roller cam. I'm pretty sure they could cut diamonds in Amsterdam with those things.

Then again, hard to fault the original flat tappet setups...fewer moving parts (the lifters). I've become a strict devotee of KISS with this tin can, and so far it has proven itself to be the way towards nirvanna, universal peace and orgasmic pleasure.