Roller CAM -FE

[Excaliber]

I use a bottle of STP added to my oil, the theory being it supplies the added ingredients missing from modern oils.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I use a bottle of STP added to my oil, the theory being it supplies the added ingredients missing from modern oils.

Do yourself a favor and send a sample of your oil off to the lab. It takes five minutes and about $25. You might be surprised at the numbers for Zinc & Phos. Do it Ernie, you can't believe anything you read on any forum or from any member or from any manufacturer on this issue. You have to check it yourself.

[FUNFER2]

I agree with the low amount Zinc & Phosof in todays oil. Using break in lube for a new engine is essential,...... especially with flat tappet cams.
I go ahead and use this oil all the time, not just for break in.

The most important issue, CHANGE THE OIL OFTEN ,.... not just every 3,500 miles like you daily driver. If I drove mine hard, I change it, as well as when I'm driving in dusty conditions, especially with my oval cobra air cleaner sucking up the dirt directly in the hood scoop. Or when I've been on the chassis dyno.

I also agree Excaliber, using a supplement such as Lucas, STP, ext. If you don't over use these products, I don't see how it can hurt. Do they help, ???
All I know is, I haven't had any issue's with my flat tappet.

[Excaliber]

OEM solid roller cams in the BLOCK are not that common. OEM hydraulic rollers are much more common, reduced friction being the primary goal. Horse power being secondary for the most part. Pretty much the same reason most OEM cam have always been hydraulic, easy to use, bullet proof, no fuss no muss.

Most all the OEM solid roller in the block cams (not OHC) are pretty mild profiles. Not at all what we would typically see in a Cobra with an after market solid roller setup. Which would tend to be more of a "race" profile than a "street" profile.

A lot of advancements have been made with solid rollers, getting them to "live" on the street, #1 being a LESS aggressive profile! If you want a BIG solid roller, even with the BEST of todays technology, it's still going to be risky business when it comes to long life on the street.

Never the less, the demise of the flat tappet cam is coming, just like the dinosaurs. The future is in roller's, the cost is already starting to come down relative to flat tappets. Flat tappets will start to cost MORE than rollers in the future and be less available.

Yeah, well, they'll have to pry my flat tappet from my cold dead fingers then...

[FUNFER2]

Sorry, I miss wrote. OEM= hydraulic and some are roller.

These hydraulic OEM lifters have needles, just like the solids, so if both types fail, you can indeed get needles in the motor. That was my point.

[undy]

Big cubic inch FEs with a lot of stroke are not go survive for long running above 6K RPM frequently, especially if it's with a heavy scat rotating assembly. It's above 6 grand where a mechanical roller shines, exactly where a stroked FE shouldn't go. Fo a race car, one that takes life 1/4 mile at a time, that might not be a bad thing. For a street driven Cobra, not a good thing.


Oh, ..YES, you can get that lumpy idle with a hydraulic roller. Sometimes it's even lumpier than a similar spec'd flat tappet due to the roller's faster ramp speeds.

Kev, I don't think your targeted solid roller cam's duration is 320 @ 0.050. The 320's probably the "advertised" duration spec. Streetability is entirely gone by 280 @ 0.050".

[lovehamr]

The cam type vs. engine type discussion is why I chose a hyd roller. As the owner of a couple of Boss 302s I know a little about revving and I love the tic tic tic sound of a solid cam as well. But the 3" stroke of a Boss is NOTHING like the 4.5" stroke of a big inch FE. Hell, my Boss heads flow as much as my ported Ebock FE heads and they feed 160ci less displacement. This being my first FE, I did allot of reading before I made my choices and all talk of zinging FEs into the 7k+ rpm range on a regular basis should just stop unless it's drag racing only. What were the GT40MkIIs turning down the Mulsanne straight? 5800 rpm or so? And that was with a stock stroke 427. Why on earth would you try to rap out a stroker FE? That being said; without that high rpm (7k+) the need for a solid cam is gone, from an operational perspective that is, and your left with the "I like solids!" argument without any other reason than "it sounds cool." Don't get me wrong, in the world of replicas that is a valid argument/desire; just don't confuse it with an engine requirement.

Steve

[Excaliber]

Special Note: Solid roller lifters are designed for use in racing applications; however if used in street applications precautions should be taken to avoid excessive idling and certain engine builder modifications are required. Low RPM usage may result in a lack of lubrication from windage, premature wear and ultimately extensive engine damage.

Well that pretty much says it all right there. There have been no significant advances with "long life" in the solid roller category. Same now as it was years ago, use on the street as your own risk.

...your left with the "I like solids!" argument without any other reason than "it sounds cool."

You left out the WAY LESS expensive part of the argument. You can do a flat tappet for a fraction of the cost of a real quality hydraulic setup. For some of us, THAT is a very valid reason indeed!

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

You left out the WAY LESS expensive part of the argument.

That argument might wash if we were exchanging thoughts on, say.. a Nissan Sentra forum, where the vehicles we're discussing are the ones that we rely heavily on for our very day-to-day existence. The very nature of our sport somewhat reeks of self indulgence with a dash of exorbitance. Not a darn thing wrong with that 'cause I are one 2...

Asside from that... Don't forget about the possibility of an engine that's forever "prescription drug" addicted to Zinc additives, not to mention forever living in fear of a dead cylinder miss with thousands of pretty shiny flakes in your oil. There seems to be more and more talk about wiped cams, well after the break-in period these days.

[patrickt]

Ernie's cost saving argument is pretty much bogus. But the zinc/phos availability is everywhere now. Every car catalog I get now seems to have their own "house oil" that is "extra rich in zinc & phos" -- I think the Summit catalog that came yesterday was the most recent with their own house brand. If you run the right oil, and if you haven't wiped a lobe in the first 1000 miles or so, your SFT will be around a long, long time.

[undy]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Ernie's cost saving argument is pretty much bogus. But the zinc/phos availability is everywhere now. Every car catalog I get now seems to have their own "house oil" that is "extra rich in zinc & phos" -- I think the Summit catalog that came yesterday was the most recent with their own house brand. If you run the right oil, and if you haven't wiped a lobe in the first 1000 miles or so, your SFT will be around a long, long time.

The jury really hasn't reached a verdict on this additive thing either. I've heard some reports on the Chebby forums of wiped FTs, even after reportedly using said additives in subsequent oil changes. Don't the additive ppm quantities diminish in the oil with age?

As said countless times before, it ends up being a personal choice kinda thing. To me it's an unnecessary risk with a comparative cheap $400 buy-in, not to mention that "roller cam" bragging rights..

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by undy

The jury really hasn't reached a verdict on this additive thing either. I've heard some reports on the Chebby forums of wiped FTs, even after reportedly using said additives in subsequent oil changes. Don't the additive ppm quantities diminish in the oil with age?

As said countless times before, it ends up being a personal choice kinda thing. To me it's an unnecessary risk with a comparative cheap $400 buy-in, not to mention that "roller cam" bragging rights..

I wonder whether the additives work or not, too. I just use Brad Penn, which is really the same old hi-level zinc/phos oil that you could get decades ago along with a bottle of the old EOS. I haven't heard of too many lobe wipes any more. It seems like everyone has caught on and maybe the bad lifters have all died by now. Some of the smarter builders seemed to think there were some weak metal lifters that were the main culprits.

[FUNFER2]

Undy- I forget what valve train you're using ?

[undy]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Undy- I forget what valve train you're using ?

2.19"/1.74" Stage 2 KC Ebocks, KC sourced Crane Hydraulic Roller lifters with his custom grind Comp Cams cam. 242/252 .638"/.646 (best I recall). Erson rockers (The only thing I'd ever put on a set of Eboks ... plug and play rockers) Smith brother's pushrods.

[Excaliber]

If your valve train geometry is setup correctly in the first place there is really very little need to adjust mechanical valves. IF they need adjustment frequently something is wrong, something is wearing out, something is getting ready to let go!

You should be able to "set it and forget it" essentially.

[Jamo]

Kevin...me thinks you're making a smart move. Paddy and Oinie have pretty well set forth the situation, and I have posted here numerous times about living with bronze gears and the perfect cutting toll which a solid roller becomes once it has shed it's needle.

Rick will tell you that he continues to experience the new compounds for distributor gears, and maybe the time is coming. But me personally thinks it ain't quite here yet.

[FUNFER2]

Excaliber- I agree, I set them in the spring and that's it unless I've been running the motor hard, even then they haven't loosened much to really worry.

Jamo-Yep, I just don't trust them yet, especially with a very expensive aluminum block.

Good news,.....the sale on my engine is pending payment ! WOO-HOO !!!
Side oiler,..... here, I come !

(can you sence I'm excited) lol

[Excaliber]

Since Undy has the "deep pockets" expense is no object for him.
I 100% stand by my conclusion that you can do a flat tappet cam setup for a FRACTION of the cost of a roller set up. Bogus argument? No way!

Let's look at some basic numbers for BASIC hardware, nothing exotic that may well be RECOMMENDED by many of todays engine builders and cost CONSIDERABLY more than the prices I've listed here.

Approximate cost comparisons:
Flat tappet cam: $150
Roller cam: $250

Flat tappet lifters: $80-$90
Rollers: $250 to $450 (retro fit to a 427 big block in the later case).

You'll need $200-$300 more for push rods, valve springs and misc IF you do your own work. Add considerably more if your paying an engine builder to do the job. Maybe you could sell your old flat tappet parts on e-bay? Don't hold your breath...

The "soft cam material" argument doesn't hold water. The Chinese steel argument doesn't cut it. And I DO acknowledge some Chinese stuff was pretty poor quality, still is, ya get what you pay for. The research is pretty clear on flat tappet cam failures which caught the ENTIRE industry by surprise across the board. Two things: Modern oil, which is easily rectified with additives readily available. Break in procedures, THAT is the primary cause. Within 20 minutes of FIRST STARTING a new engine you have already established the "break in". That cam is going to live or die based on that first 20 minutes.

Don't think you can't wipe out a hydraulic roller cam either!!! Run 'em hard and push their rpm limit and the lifters begin to fail, that leaves clearance problems, that leads to cam/lifter failure. Just as ugly as any other cam/lifter failure. THAT is why many of todays engine builders will recommend the latest, greatest and best roller lifter technology available. And it's going to cost you a LOT more than a set of flat tappet lifters and well above the prices I've listed here!

Personally I would NOT run a "basic" low cost hydraulic roller cam on the track and be pushing my rpm limits with it. While you may "float the valves" with a flat tappet, they aren't anywhere near the danger of "floating the valves" on a hydraulic roller.

If the issue is simply one of "max power" a solid roller of any kind will ALWAYS outperform a hydraulic roller, period!

If the issue is "money", the flat tappet win's hands down, no contest.

If the issue is good street manners, good power over a broad range of rpm and limiting max rpm for long life, hydraulic roller is a good choice. Assuming race and money are not primary issues of course.

[patrickt]

OK, If I drop off an FE block at my favorite engine builder and ask him to build me a SFT engine, and then ask him what the additional cost is going to be to "upgrade" to a solid roller, that cost is going to be less than, say, $500. Correct?

[Excaliber]

Yeah, theoretically, the cost difference could be as little as $500, for a SOLID roller. Hydraulic roller is the most expensive option.

Depending on who your builder is the cost of the parts will likely be much more than the price I've listed for two reasons. #1 you'll be paying top retail price, even if you think your getting a discount, the cost will be factored in some other area. #2 it's unlikely he will build your big horse power Cobra motor with "basic" parts. All though you could go with a local builder who will indeed build it to your budget, caveat emptor.

Here comes the kicker:
The price of the parts will rise (like the ramp on a roller cam) considerably faster for quality roller parts than it will for quality flat tappet parts.

Premium parts would be the logical standard for a good quality builder if he offers a warranty. You could save even more if you went with some non-brand name (solid or roller) lifters compared to a well known brand name lifter. But "no name" lifters are notorious for being inferior, this is one area where I will not scrimp! I wonder how many flat tappet cams have been lost due to inferior foreign lifters and the cam manufacturer is the one who takes the heat???

The "savings" could buy you a nice Armando road racing oil pan. Or a nice set of March pulleys, etc. etc.