Roller CAM -FE

[PANAVIA]

Rick-- good tips!!-- I am probably in for a set of manley push rods for sure.

I remember the COMP CAMS tech mentioning that ihe was going to do 2 degrees adv vs 4 - not sure why.

This engine is headed into my CSX with undercar exh-- however --IN other FE news-- I am majorly majorly bummed as my 428CJ vintage heads failed magnaflux-- they be really cracked. in 4 places. -- - - - - - - - - - - cyls 2,3,6,7 between the spark plug holes and the exh valve seats.

looking like I have a pair of 40 year old boat anchors.

the block, crank and rods go together this week--

trying to figure out which way to go from here.

[PANAVIA]

OK, an update. 03-21-2010 -- I finally got the 428 in the engine run stand and tried to fire it up. The original iron boat anchor heads were returned to the vendor long ago.

I installed a set of Edelbrock Performer RPM cylinder heads, and matching intake. I wanted this to look like a stock ford ( of sorts) so I took the extra step of milling off the edelbrock script on the intake and painting it blue.

Ignition; Summit has a great little distributor with a gear that is good for roller or iron use.

what I am having problems with now is the rocker arm spacing , position and geometry.

I bought a set of smith bros push rods to go with my Comp cams Roller FE rockers, however they -the rockers- the end girdles do not fit under the "COBRA -LEMANS" cast aluminum valve covers. in addition edelbrock performer RPM heads move the valve positions in such a way that the stock comp cams roller rockers setup will not readily align with the pushrods and valve stem tips.

Not to mention the push-rod clearance work I had to do to the intake. add this to the problem where a few of the adjuster nuts on the roller rockers were not threaded all the way, and backed off during run in. (will put up pic of inside of adjuster nut. )

When the nut backed off it allowed the pushrod to gall the bottom end of the rocker(s)

More news when it happens. -- on the phone with Comp Cams monday.

Steve

[RICK LAKE]

PANAVIA OK here goes.
EAsy stuff first, Valve covers hitting the rocker ends. If you like the valve cover you have, you are going to have to mill or grind the end supports to clear the valve covers. If you don't want to do this, one of the guys here sells spacers that bolt between the head and valve cover. Just need a second set of gaskets and it gives about 3/4" of height.
Rockers and pushrods, the camshaft is a little big with over .600" lift. You are going to need a dremel tool to grind the area behind where the adjuster rides. You want about .030" clearance on full lift of the pushrod to the rocker edge. You also need to remember that the motor is a living thing and expands when hot and scrinks when cold. Don't go crazy on this modification. Remove as little material as possible for the clearance. Min. of .080" orifaces in the head for controlling oil to the rockers. This oil also cools the valve spring which produce alot of heat too. I doubt that you ar going to be able to center on the rockers on the valve ends with interferance of the intake manifold. The important thing is to have clearance of the pushrod through full movement from the intake. As long as the rocker wheel is in the center of the valve stem this is OK. It may be a little off to the right or left on the valve. Over time this may wear out the guide or valve and need to be repaired or replaced.
For the adjuster on the rockers I would tell you to buy the valve adjuster tool from LSM Nice tool that turns both the adjust and a torque wrench to lock it off and not over tighten the nut. Look under LSM PRODUCTS.
1 Question How did you order the pushrods if you didn't have the camshaft and rockers on the motor? It sound like you could also have the the wrong length. If too long you would have the pushrod hitting the rocker on the inside too. If too short too many threads sticking out of the rocker at the bottom. Some where in this forum is the correct setup for rockers and how you want them to stay centered on the valve stem if you have already not done this. I don't know if the block was machined square on the cylinders. They could have removed from .005-.020" to get a new flat clean surface. This will knock off the corrrect length. Recheck your build, if unsure go back to the beginning and recheck to make sure that everything is square. Intake to heads, heads to block, intake clearance on the block and so on. .020" doesn't sound like alot, but it could cause the pushrods to hit the rocker with out any modifications. Been through this may self with double order of pushrods on my motor. The nut on the adjust pushrod came loose and knocked off the roller rocker from staying in the center of the valve stem. Good luck. I think Tom Lucas sell valve spacers but not sure. Google it. Rick L.

[FUNFER2]

Rick has given you great information and all I can add is this. With those valve covers, the rockers should not be hitting ?

I have had them on my 428 for years with no issue. I do have a pair of chrome "Pent Roof" valve covers that have extra clearance, that I could sell you if needed. They also have the cobra badge on them.

[Excaliber]

The original side oiler "service blocks" came from the factory setup for both hyd or solid cam, just use an oil restrictor if running solid. In that case no "conversion" would be required, my block is that way.

My solid roller broke a roller and scattered the needles bearings at 8,000 miles, just shy of ten.

I to encountered dist gear drive problems before that happened. I went to a flat tappet, cost consideration was a big factor (well OK, plus I just couldn't stand the thought of running a hydraulic cam, great though they be).

One of my big concerns with a hydraulic roller cam is the lack of "lumpy idle"?? I really like the sound, the feel, the throbbing of a big cam at low rpm. I LIKE that motor torquing the car at idle rpm. Maybe I'm wrong, DO the hydraulic rollers allow for a "lumpy idle"?

[FUNFER2]

I think if you want a loppy idle, go to 110 or 108 lobe sep. My cam is a flat tappet 600 lift. 252/260 duration and 110 lobe sep. It really has very loppy sound, but not too much to have idle problems.

I'm thinking with my new engine, of going to 600-650 lift and 320 dur. and 108 sep. While not hurting performance too much, but will sound radical in a cobra. We'll see.

[Excaliber]

Kevin, are you thinking of going with a new ROLLER cam or do you mean a different flat tappet?

CAN you get a "lumpy idle" with a hydraulic roller? If not, count me out! I think thats a huge part of the whole experience, a "bad to the bone" nasty idle that sounds good but really isn't a problem as it concerns drivability. My current cam profile is perfect for that!

[FUNFER2]

"think thats a huge part of the whole experience, a "bad to the bone" nasty idle that sounds good"

Exactly buddy.

When I hear a cobra with very mild sound, I ask why ? lol
(but, what ever turns your crank)

I mean, the feel and sound of any,..... performance engine, it what it's all about. I may be selling my 428 FE to a guy that has a mild 302, because he likes the performance and,..... the looks of the block being sanded smooth, painted my body color and the SOUND ! When I fire up my motor, I get a huge smile on my face, and other people also. At car shows, I let anyone with a clean butt, to sit in my cobra, and sometimes, let them start it. When this happens, people come running to the car. lol

That's what I love about the cobra and,..... a great sounding engine.
Sometimes the motor loads up and fouls the spark plugs a bit, but I clean them up on the highway when leaving the show.

Nope, the new engine, a all aluminum side oiler will have a solid roller cam.
Partly because I want to achieve higher rpm than my flat tappet. I expect the red line to be 6,000 or higher. I need to work out the rest of the engine before making a decision with the specs..

You can have a very lumpy motor with a hydraulic cam, and you don't have to have real high lift. The duration & lobe separation can make up for that. With my side oiler, I can go to say,... 11:1 compression without detonation, because of the aluminum heads but, there's no need to and it will be on pump gas. 10:5 is fine with me.

I'll add this also. Some people are concerned about the needle bearings of a roller cam falling apart and causing problems but, the hydraulics,... also have needle bearings, unlike a solid flat tappet.

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

I'll add this also. Some people are concerned about the needle bearings of a roller cam falling apart and causing problems but, the hydraulics,... also have bearings, unlike a solid flat tappet.

You have to remember that the needle bearings in a solid lifter are going to experience much higher impact loads because of the lash inherent to a solid. The hydraulic lifters are always in contact with the cam lobe so that is much less of an issue, hence the documented difference in survivability of the solid vs. hydraulic lifters during extended operation.

Steve

[FUNFER2]

And that's one reason I don't like hydraulics in a performance engine. Either flat tappet or solid roller. I want & need higher rpm's, so for me, I'll have a solid roller this time around.

[4pipes]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

You have to remember that the needle bearings in a solid lifter are going to experience much higher impact loads because of the lash inherent to a solid. The hydraulic lifters are always in contact with the cam lobe so that is much less of an issue, hence the documented difference in survivability of the solid vs. hydraulic lifters during extended operation.

Steve

Not only the valve lash, but the higher spring forces as well produce much higher impact loads.

[patrickt]

Lykins and I have had this fight a thousand times. He can generally argue the facts pretty well that the right hydraulic cam will do everything, including rev, as well or better than a solid flat tappet. He doesn't like solid rollers either. I don't believe he's ever addressed the "sound" issue, but I have heard some of the newer thumper cams that did sound nice -- but they don't have the tell-tale sewing machine, clackity clack noise of a SFT. On the other hand, I did have a tried & true car guy ask me "is your engine supposed to sound like that?" So I guess it cuts both ways. If you go with the roller, solicit thoughts on just pressing an iron gear on the end of it. Personally, I wouldn't go with a solid roller in an FE. You can get as much horsepower as you want with a plain old SFT. Once it's broken in, it'll pretty much last forever if you just remember to use the right oil.

[Excaliber]

I use a bottle of STP added to my oil, the theory being it supplies the added ingredients missing from modern oils.

[FUNFER2]

I guess I don't understand the "not a solid roller" cam ?
A lot of car today are aluminum engines with a solid cam (and hydro)

A solid roller lives in the upper,... rpm range, like full out racing engines. The problem in the past has been with cruising stop to stop light, so it was very hard on the lifters starving them with out lubrication. With todays modern lifter, they are... oiled, unlike the past lifters. These new lifters are supposed to be just fine on the street.

Comp cams has a very nice lifter (and rockers) for wild street roller cam.
More company's need to do this.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I use a bottle of STP added to my oil, the theory being it supplies the added ingredients missing from modern oils.

Do yourself a favor and send a sample of your oil off to the lab. It takes five minutes and about $25. You might be surprised at the numbers for Zinc & Phos. Do it Ernie, you can't believe anything you read on any forum or from any member or from any manufacturer on this issue. You have to check it yourself.

[FUNFER2]

I agree with the low amount Zinc & Phosof in todays oil. Using break in lube for a new engine is essential,...... especially with flat tappet cams.
I go ahead and use this oil all the time, not just for break in.

The most important issue, CHANGE THE OIL OFTEN ,.... not just every 3,500 miles like you daily driver. If I drove mine hard, I change it, as well as when I'm driving in dusty conditions, especially with my oval cobra air cleaner sucking up the dirt directly in the hood scoop. Or when I've been on the chassis dyno.

I also agree Excaliber, using a supplement such as Lucas, STP, ext. If you don't over use these products, I don't see how it can hurt. Do they help, ???
All I know is, I haven't had any issue's with my flat tappet.

[Excaliber]

OEM solid roller cams in the BLOCK are not that common. OEM hydraulic rollers are much more common, reduced friction being the primary goal. Horse power being secondary for the most part. Pretty much the same reason most OEM cam have always been hydraulic, easy to use, bullet proof, no fuss no muss.

Most all the OEM solid roller in the block cams (not OHC) are pretty mild profiles. Not at all what we would typically see in a Cobra with an after market solid roller setup. Which would tend to be more of a "race" profile than a "street" profile.

A lot of advancements have been made with solid rollers, getting them to "live" on the street, #1 being a LESS aggressive profile! If you want a BIG solid roller, even with the BEST of todays technology, it's still going to be risky business when it comes to long life on the street.

Never the less, the demise of the flat tappet cam is coming, just like the dinosaurs. The future is in roller's, the cost is already starting to come down relative to flat tappets. Flat tappets will start to cost MORE than rollers in the future and be less available.

Yeah, well, they'll have to pry my flat tappet from my cold dead fingers then...

[FUNFER2]

Sorry, I miss wrote. OEM= hydraulic and some are roller.

These hydraulic OEM lifters have needles, just like the solids, so if both types fail, you can indeed get needles in the motor. That was my point.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

CAN you get a "lumpy idle" with a hydraulic roller?

Yes, you can.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Yes, you can.

Yes, but can you get a sound that makes people ask you "is that the way your engine is supposed to sound?"