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06-06-2009, 01:34 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose CA,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF_R_/BRG/FRBoss302/327CI/FordEFI/Under_Car_Exh/
Posts: 2,523
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Not Ranked
Roller CAM -FE
So we have seen a ton of roller-rocker FE's harland sharp, sino-ebay deals and others, -
- however I wanted to hear experiences with *roller cam* converted FE's -- who have you used, was it worth it , what did you like >?
Thanks Guys !
--Steve
UPDATE: Spoke tih Comp-Cams Ford FE specialist, we have a custom Hyd Roller on the way , and is should behave close to the C8AX-6250-C Spec from 1968 428 CJ's.
(Cant wait !!!)
__________________
Steve SPF 2734 MK3 / Brock Coupe #54- panavia.com
Last edited by PANAVIA; 06-16-2009 at 09:53 PM..
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06-06-2009, 02:47 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: E BRUNSWICK N.J. USA,
Posts: 3,841
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Roller camshaft or roller bearing camshaft?
PANAVIA Steve not sure witch one you are talking about. Only a couple of guys are running camshaft roolerbearing motors. These are not really street motors. Big power and High cost.
Roller camshafts, alot of guys are running in there motors. I am running a small crane shaft with a .587"-.607" lift on a very streetable 482 motor. Real power numbers are little over 600 ft of torque at the crank and 560's HP. The motor is all done by 6,200 rpms. Idle is smooth. KCR has about 20-30 custom grinds for camshafts on jusy FE motors. They would be one of the guys to MATCHUP a camshaft to your motor, trans and rearend ratio. You have to know that depending on weather you run a hydro lifter or solid lifter, the price is high. Cam shaft about $300.00 lifters in the $400.00's. Custom length pushrods, $200.00. With camsshafts bigger is not always better. If you are racing, that's one thing, but for street, no. Too many guys have gone to smaller camshafts and are very happy with the car overall and giving up 50-70 HP in the top end.
RPM range,a hydro lifter motor even with great valve springs is all done at about 6,300 rpms. The lifters pump up. Solid roller lifters, the sky is the limit or valve spring float which every somes first. I limit my stroker motors to 6,200 rpms, way too much heavy metal spinning around in the bottom of that block. IMO a roller camshaft will make more power, have a wider power band, and require about the same maintainance as a hydro motor with valve lash need ing to be done or checked about twice a year. This depends on how much you beat your motor and car.
Side notes, if you go with a roller cam shaft, Don't let the motor idle for long amount of time. IMO there is not alot of oil spraying around to lube the camshaft and roller wheels in the lifters unless they are pressure fed. Windage tray is also a question mark with this kind of camshaft, unless some custom oil modifcations are done to the lifter bores to help direct oil to the camshaft, roller wheel contact point, I might not run a windage tray. This applies for scrapers of the crankshafts too.
I am putting a custom KCR camshaft in my 498 motor that will be in the .640" lift range with hydro lifters. This motor will have beehive springs and a high rpm range to many be 6,500 rpm. IMO hydro roller camshafts are the way to go for anything but looking for max power and 7,000 rpm range. Rick L.
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06-06-2009, 05:31 AM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PANAVIA
I wanted to hear experiences with *roller cam* converted FE's -- who have you used, was it worth it , what did you like?
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Steve, I don't think there are any real issues with hydraulic roller camshafts in an FE. Now solid rollers may be a different story. I know back five or so years ago there were durability issues with solid roller cam setups in an FE -- they just weren't lasting very long (the lifters, that is). Most fellas were only seeing a few thousand miles as I recall. Obviously hydraulic lifters see plenty of oil, and there were threads discussing whether it was smart to block off the galleys (like you traditionally do with a solid cam) with solid roller lifters. Some said leaving them open was smarter (some say that though on just regular old solid flat tappets as well). I kind of remember, although I may be imagining it, that there have been improvements in the solid roller lifters over the last five years -- so if you see a thread from 2002 over in the FE forum complaining that their solid roller lifters only lasted three thousand miles you might want to read something more recent.
EDIT -- I think the distributor gear problems have been overcome. I haven't heard any problems on that in a while, but maybe people are just in the habit of changing them out after so many miles? Not using an iron gear applies to both hydro and solids -- but, you know, pulling the distributor to press on a new gear is not a big deal (especially if you just take the new gear and distributor to a machine shop and tell them to do it). Anyway, those were the two issues that I remember: 1) Durability of the lifters; and 2) Durability of the distributor gear.
Last edited by patrickt; 06-06-2009 at 05:53 AM..
Reason: I remembered the distributor gear issue.
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06-06-2009, 10:52 AM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Folsom,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA 623, 427 S/C Cobra. Ford FE 428 Cobra Jet, Ford Nascar TL 4speed - with a touch of raw; "less is more" theme
Posts: 3,882
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FE Builds in Sac
Hey Steve,
You might check with Tom Lucas at FE Specialities, just up the road here in Sac. He's done several conversions for original FE blocks, hydraulic/solid roller setups. Many coversations over many years about this with him...
I was one of his diehard (solid lifter flat tappet FE) customers who never converted, all is still going well, but every time I see him he ribs me a bit about not catching up with modern technology and benefits. Tom's dialed into various research and testing groups and has helped a few friends on these kinds of decisions.
On the performance side of the equation, most folks here would not even believe what they just got from the dyno this week on his latest normally aspirated FE build with some recent developments - numbers I've not seen before from an FE. If I wrote it here, not too many would believe it - so I won't. Maybe Tom will come along later and post something. He is at 916-339-0427
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Duane
Western States Cobra Group 1998-2016.
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06-06-2009, 12:31 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose CA,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF_R_/BRG/FRBoss302/327CI/FordEFI/Under_Car_Exh/
Posts: 2,523
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Keep the info commin' -- 4pipes gave me some info this AM as well--
__________________
Steve SPF 2734 MK3 / Brock Coupe #54- panavia.com
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06-06-2009, 01:21 PM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PANAVIA
Keep the info commin' -- 4pipes gave me some info this AM as well--
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I was watching one of the car shows on SpeedTV this afternoon, like "Muscle Car" or their "Power Block" or something, and they were putting in a new MSD distributor in a 460 with a new roller cam and they put on a new Comp Cams composite distributor gear and said that, unlike bronze, it will never wear out. That's an exact quote -- yep, I guess a hundred years from now it'll still be as good as new. Now I'm just repeating what the TV show guy said, I don't know, so no flames please. After all, I still run the same type of stuff they were making 40 years ago.
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06-06-2009, 01:29 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: saratoga,
ca
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham #185, Shelby Alloy 482; sold
Posts: 1,190
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Not Ranked
Steve, my Crower cam is part number 16462 Street Roller Performance Level 4, requires kit #84524 which specifies lifter, springs, retainers, and seals. This cam and kit are good for 7k rpm in an FE. All are viewable at:
http://crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml
FYI, the tan smoke you saw from my exhaust during warmup was leaded race gas deposits on the inside of my pipes.
Hope that helps.
__________________
Dave
Last edited by 4pipes; 06-07-2009 at 01:12 PM..
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06-18-2009, 05:53 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose CA,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF_R_/BRG/FRBoss302/327CI/FordEFI/Under_Car_Exh/
Posts: 2,523
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Not Ranked
Ok, so spoke to the guys at comp cams at legnth, and i have one of their prototype cams coming that is a hydraulic roller version of the C8AX-6250-C cam along with their new roller hydraulic lifters.
working on installed spring height and other details.
I am thinking the engine should be assembled and running in 20-30 days and in the car say within 30 days , so an early august streetable date looks plausible.
--if i can get the time to work on it ( HAHAHAHA)
Steve
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Steve SPF 2734 MK3 / Brock Coupe #54- panavia.com
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06-18-2009, 06:50 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Eagle,
Ne.
Cobra Make, Engine: 1966 Lone Star 427SC.
Posts: 4,307
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If,......i remember correctly. Keith said that CompCams has a newer lifter for mechanical roller cams, that have a oil hole so it receives oil. He said several of these motors now have several thousands miles with no report of failure. I'll have to check with him or CompCams
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Regards,
Kevin
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06-18-2009, 06:41 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Williamsport,
PA
Cobra Make, Engine: Kellison Stallion 468 FE
Posts: 2,703
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i have a solid roller from comp cams, using T&D rocker set up. its in the 671 lift range.
i like it. the lifters have a low life expectancy. i was told to change them at 10,000 miles. got 5k on it now. it revs like a small block.
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06-18-2009, 06:49 PM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FWB
I was told to change them at 10,000 miles. got 5k on it now.
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That's a PITA -- do their new roller lifters have extended life?
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06-18-2009, 07:07 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Williamsport,
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Cobra Make, Engine: Kellison Stallion 468 FE
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uh, i believe all solid rollers have a finite life. the roller pin wears and it may break.
i do have the oil hole lifters in fact i am oiling up the pushrods for the T&D rockers.
the hydraulic rollers may be different i don't know, but the solids will have the mileage restriction. i usually put maybe 2k on per year so lifters every 5 years isn't a problem.
this stuff doesn't phase me i tear apart my motor just to check things anyway. so dropping in a set of lifters when changing intakes or gaskets is quick.
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06-18-2009, 07:24 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Eagle,
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Cobra Make, Engine: 1966 Lone Star 427SC.
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I agree. The only thing I hate, is the extra work you have to do on a FE vs a Chevy. But that's ok,.....it's a correct motor for the car and wouldn't have it any other way. (one guy I heard has a Hemi)
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Regards,
Kevin
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06-18-2009, 07:46 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose CA,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF_R_/BRG/FRBoss302/327CI/FordEFI/Under_Car_Exh/
Posts: 2,523
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KEEP IN MIND : Hydraulic Roller Lifters say it with me ---HAAAYYYY_DRAAAAUUUUUL---LIIIIIICKKK....so I am hoping for an extended life from them. --Steve
__________________
Steve SPF 2734 MK3 / Brock Coupe #54- panavia.com
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06-18-2009, 10:00 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Williamsport,
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Cobra Make, Engine: Kellison Stallion 468 FE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PANAVIA
KEEP IN MIND : Hydraulic Roller Lifters say it with me ---HAAAYYYY_DRAAAAUUUUUL---LIIIIIICKKK....so I am hoping for an extended life from them. --Steve
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"the hydraulic rollers may be different i don't know," was my response wise a$$. maybe you could refer to YOUR question.
"- however I wanted to hear experiences with *roller cam* converted FE's -- who have you used, was it worth it , what did you like >?"
put down the pipe for a second.
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06-21-2009, 03:21 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: E BRUNSWICK N.J. USA,
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Need a rev kit to extend the life of a roller into 30k miles
patrickt Pat 1/2 of the reason hydros roller last longer is because of the lash load on the lifter all the time. The wheel has consist contact with the cam shaft, even on the down side of the lobe. The oil acts like a cushion to help extend the life. With a solid camshaft setup roller or tappet you have a .018"-.025" of space that is either between the lifter and the pushrod or the pushrod and the rocker adjuster. This clearance is what causes the roller lifters and solids to wear out. Oiling does have some to do with this. If you put a rev kit in the motor you remove the lifter bouncing over the surface of the camshaft lobe. this will stop the beating of either the bearing inside or the wheel. The other side of the problem is how much spring pressure is need ed to control the lifter at say 6,500 rpms?? I am looking at using the weakest spring for a rev kit and seeing where this will go. If this works, you can run a liter valve spring and get the same or higher rpms without floating or hurting the valve train or motor.
The other problem, IMO is oiling of the system. IMO when a motor is running at 2,000 rpms there is enough splashing inside the motor for the camshaft and lifter contact points, (MAYBE) depending again on the block. By adding a small groove to each lifter bore or in some cases the new lifters have a groove in the outside case, add more oil to the contact point of lifter and lobe. The idling of solid lifter motor is what kills there life. I have some ideas for my other motor that I will get the test to see if my theories are right or not. I am staying with a hydro lifter motor and looking at a rev kit.
With the amount of power hydro roller motors are making, unless you are looking for every last rpm in a motor, I just don't see the need for 7,000 rpms on the street. You build a car with the right gearing in both rearend and trans, have a motor with a large torque power band, it will live twice as long, require less maintainance, and is not extended beyond there limits of this FE block. Just my 2 cents.
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06-21-2009, 05:26 AM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,967
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Rick -- Go over in to the "Lounge" and read my rant on GM and replacing the multi-function switch. It's under the thread "I Now Know Why GM is Going Bankrupt."
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06-21-2009, 10:08 AM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Folsom,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA 623, 427 S/C Cobra. Ford FE 428 Cobra Jet, Ford Nascar TL 4speed - with a touch of raw; "less is more" theme
Posts: 3,882
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Ongoing developments
What's amazing to me about this thread is many have been chatting right here on ClubCobra for at least eight to ten years solid back and forth (look back through threads) about FE hydraulic vs. solid lifter setups, related problems, advancements, here we are approaching 2010 and vendor-x now coming out with yet another new redesigned prototype roller lifter with oil hole/groove technology for FEs to try and get it to last a little longer and work better.
One would think with all the modern materials, machinery, computer advancements, and great minds all linking up now through the internet a simple and long lasting (solid or hydraulic) FE roller cam and lifter design could be developed and realized.
It would be create to hear feedback from folks on Clubcobra about how many trouble-free miles they have gone with their x-type FE roller or solid cam in their Cobras to help weed out the successes from the failures. Many times we tend to hear more about the failures, which makes it more difficult to evaluate.
Hopefully development and technology is getting better for FE roller cams/lifters by now, or at least within this decade.
__________________
Duane
Western States Cobra Group 1998-2016.
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06-21-2009, 11:49 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Fresno,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: KMP 184/482ci Shelby
Posts: 14,444
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Me thinks I was one of the first to scream loud and often about using solid roller cams in an FE. I have had extremely good luck with the second solid roller cam I used...not one problem with it. It sits on a shelf at Joe Boghosian's shop where it's been for the past three years after I swapped the third bronze gear in less than 2,000 miles and had Joe pull the sumb!tch and put in a flat tappet of similar grind (.680 lift, 270/270 at .50)...not one problem since whether in stop and go in high heat, long cruises all over California, or hauling ass at the track (and that's hauling one big ass).
Oiling...if you keep the splash up by constantly tapping the throttle at idle, should be ok. Failure to do so will result in the creation of one of the finest cutting tools known to man...a solid roller lifter sans needle bearing.
Distributor gear...if they finally have stopped experimenting and have come up with a good composite...great! As Duane notes, it's not as if this is a new problem, so the mfgs have had enough time. Every now and then we have some Chevy or small block person tell us how they use a steel gear on their solid roller...but that's irrelevant simply because the cam mfgs press on stronger steel cam gears for those applications because they sell more. Yes, some folks never have a problem, either because they use a dry sump (and thereby relieve the distributor gear from double duty) or just plain have good luck (usually drag racers though...it's a bit tougher on the street IMO with idling, etc.).
If you want a roller cam setup...hydraulic roller cams offer the best apllication for street use. If you're on the track the majority of the time, then a solid roller will provide great runup for high rpms with a little forethought in replacing the bronze gear regularly (or finding the elusive composite gear).
So, what are the benefits of a solid roller over a flat tappet?
1. No break in. BFD.
2. No fear of a flattened cam down the road. BFD.
What are the downsides?
1. Fear of not getting enough oil on the lifters...so you need to constantly tickle the throttle to create splash at idle.
2. Fear of broken distributor bronze gears...a PITA on a trip (had one go out on a 10,000 foot pass in the Sierras)...unless you get your hands on a composite.
3. Higher costs.
4. No higher revs than a flat tappet.
Just my considered opinion based on personal experience. BTW...no expense was spared on my motor (TDI, Velasco, etc.) and it was built by one of the best (Boghosian)...who, along with Tom Kirkham and George Anderson told me NOT to use a solid roller, but I did not listen because I wanted the latest/greatest.
Anybody want a solid roller FE cam with big numbers? I'll throw in several highly sharpened bronze gears for free. I'll sell it to folks I don't like, but not to friends.
__________________
Jamo
Last edited by Jamo; 06-22-2009 at 10:56 AM..
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06-22-2009, 12:52 AM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary, FE, Tremec TKO 600
Posts: 1,968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo
If you want a roller cam setup...hydraulic roller cams offer the best apllication for street use. If you're on the track the majority of the time, then a solid roller will provide great runup for high rpms with a little forethought in replacing the bronze gear regularly (or finding the elusive composite gear).
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I'm not all that educated on this whole distributor gear problem. Honestly, all I did was tell Keith Craft that when he shipped my MSD distributor to custom curve it to spec for the cam and application, and to put whatever gear he thought was best for the cam he was supplying. It came with a bronze gear on it. Are you saying that this bronze gear will be a problem? Are you also saying that hydraulic roller cams don't have a distributor gear problem but solid roller cams do? I wasn't aware of that. Any idea why they would be different? Thanks.
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