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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2005, 09:41 AM
Ant Ant is offline
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Default 5.4 L engined JBL

With the JBL having a very good chassis I would be very interested in owning your technology as I have just sold my Cobra project!

Has JBL considered using the quad cam 5.4 engines instead of these less reliable and expensive to get big hp windsor engines, maybe if the 429 style car works out you might make a JBL with a larger engine bay for a 427SO as well!

I would think an alloy FE 427 with 550-600bhp would still be a quick track car, but less stressed than all these odd ball big stroked windsors.
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Old 01-16-2005, 01:10 PM
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What made you quit the current project Ant?
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Old 01-16-2005, 03:14 PM
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Default Project

Bevan,

Chassis, I was starting to build an original chassis from using the 427 chassis plans and building it like a Cobra coupe with a backbone through the tunnel, that is not a problem as I have access to a big MIG, and I do heaps of TIG welding etc, but thought it better to quit the lot as a unit and start again with a clever chassis already sorted, hence looking at US manufacturers.

The first person that looked at my build purchased it, I reckon I could have asked more for it - damn there is some good stuff which has taken hours, and this is what has burnt me out a bit, perfectionism everything has to be perfect, but the chassis has annoyed me the whole journey, I was speaking to a good friend and the penny dropped, who cares about originality and as I spent 5 1/2 years doing my first one, now 3 years on this and the way I am going it will take anther 5 years to complete, I am keen to do some track miles and dont want to wait that long!

Down the road it goes and I am keen on a JBL, but I cant quite get my head around running a windsor Ford, cost to much to make enough power. I like smallblocks but an alloy big block would be nice and less stressed!

Hopefully JBL might consider making a chassis to incorporate larger engines, but as I have read in some of Richard Hudgins posts and I sorta agree his concept is handling and smallblocks are more suitable!
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Last edited by Ant; 01-16-2005 at 03:19 PM..
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Old 01-16-2005, 03:18 PM
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If you after handling surely a formula 5000 would be the go?

So did you sell all the bits in the end? Wheels, knockons etc etc?
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Old 01-16-2005, 03:22 PM
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Maybe you should consider contacting Jim Dedunski and buying Sefton Gibbs race car off him? Space frame, 600hp (was anyway) small block, all sorted - very fast car.
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Old 01-16-2005, 07:00 PM
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Default Cobra

I have sold most of the bits, keeping a set of alloy and stainless knock off nuts in case I make up one peice hubs.

I still want to drive a Cobra on the road for fun and testing purposes so a Formula 5000 is out of the question, trailoring everywhere been there and done that!

Do you have a contact number for Jim Dedunski? How quick is Seftons old cobra?

With the exchange rate its very attractive to buy from the US at the moment, but I think a good car will still cost between $60-$80NZ which ever way I go
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:21 PM
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No I dont have a contact number sorry - but I am sure that there arnt too many Dedunskis around. He lives somewhere in the New Plymouth area I think.

He purchased the car damaged, and rebuilt it, and has raced it a little. Not sure if it is for sale or not, but didnt see it at this years Classic meeting, he was racing a Celica.

The car is very quick, used to do around 1:13s on slicks at Manfeild I think (I have done 1:17 on road tyres in the Gulf car). It weighs less than the Gulf car ( I think it was less than 1000kg, Gulf car is about 1060 and JBL is about the same as Gulf car), space framed chassis, thin fiberglass body, has similar power, less torque.

Engine was Ford Motorsport block, Yates heads, Barry Grant Carb, dry sump, under car exhausts, T10 gearbox, Nissan diff. All built and tuned by some crowd in Auckland (name escapes me, but he does a lot of the Transam stuff).

The car was able to be road legal, has lights, horn etc. tho it did have a lexan windscreen (which is mounted to the full roll cage).

I believe the car may have less power than it used to (apparently detuned at some stage).

Worth a try anyway - it was a very well sorted car, competing with all the big boys in the Porsches and Viper race cars etc.

I agree with the statement about the NZ$, but I think as a rule the NZ cars are much cheaper to manufacture than the ones made in the States.

This car looked like a real Cobra (as opposed to the JBL). May not have the fancy suspension design, but from my limited chassis knowledge the space frame should be lighter than the JBL and potentially stronger.

Plus - buying a car from overseas brings a lot of extra headaches in NZ doesnt it - particularly trying to register one (as opoposed to a race car).

Anyway. Good luck, let me know how you get on.

Cheers
Bevan.

Last edited by BevanWright; 01-16-2005 at 08:27 PM..
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Old 01-16-2005, 11:29 PM
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Default Seftons old car

Hello Bevan,

You have mentioned a lot there, I will at least suss it out and see what happens, will keep you posted.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BevanWright



This car looked like a real Cobra (as opposed to the JBL). May not have the fancy suspension design, but from my limited chassis knowledge the space frame should be lighter than the JBL and potentially stronger.
That should get Richard's attention.....
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:56 AM
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I can hardly wait.... Tick tock tick tock...
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Old 01-17-2005, 12:48 PM
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Craig,

Bevan is absolutely correct.

The JBL does not look like a cobra and the chassis is heavy and quite weak.

Also, as we all know suspension geometry really means little.

To go fast, It is all motor. The bigger the better!!
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:04 PM
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Haha - fair enough Richard - not trying to get at your product - but we are a long way from America here, and I know this car handles extremely well.

I know the JBL looks like a Cobra - but I know Ant, and he is pretty particular about the originality aspect of what he does.

Suspension wise - I am sure your rocker design is superior, I have no argument at all about that. But I am also sure that a double a-arm arrangement can be made to handle to a very similar standard.

Also - the weight of the car I am talking about I believe is lighter than you list on your web site. It was made as a race car, with very little road car tendency.

I am not sure about the torsional rigitidy, you would be able to comment on this - how does a spaceframe weigh up against a chassis such as yours? Maybe yours is much stronger - tell us?

By the way - the car I am recommending Ant looks at is a 302 Ford small block, so I believe that is smaller than than the 351 you suggest.

Sorry to tread on your toes - I am sure you know far more about suspension than I ever will - just trying to give Ant an alternative to weigh up against your cars.

Last edited by BevanWright; 01-17-2005 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:21 PM
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Default Chassis design etc

Hey Bevan

You are a good man, and Richards reply its a beaut! I have had several emails with Richard on chassis design, he gave me some advice quite a while ago, and its very hard to compere chassis unless you look at them for a start and then test them for torsional rigidity in the workshop and on the track for obvious reasons.

Your car handled well albeit a basic ladder frame of quite light 3x3, but it has been well sorted with huge horsepower and has the engine/transmission as a stressed member also other tubes from the rollbar mount etc supplement and add to stiffness.

The car you refer to was the first space frame Cobra built in NZ, and is very quick, I would have to view it to see if I consider the chassis to be like the JBL (all from pictures) Almac cars who built it did a great job, but looking at their basic unit and Graham Berry with all due respect to him is more of a hotrodder than a race chassis builder, but having said that Graham more than likely has produced a great chassis the old "Kiwi" way.

All that is just my opinion I like the Almac body it is very good compared to anything else I have seen here, most if not all of the other bodys in NZ are crap with the sides of the cars taper in going up from the valances on several - they are terrible. Also on CC body shapes were mentioned, but I think it would be hard to mount a different body than what each manufacturer designed it for!

I would say the JBL would be hard to beat as far as a chassis goes, especially with additional unsprung weight advantages and people in the advanced race game. Mind you Seftons old car is sorted and it would be hard to beat, it did an easy 1.32 lap of the Ruapuna circuit with more potential to knock another 3 seconds to equal good Transam times, the legendary late Possum Bourne gave him a hard time in his factory very large 500-600bhp Subaru rally car- spectacular stuff. Also as mentioned in an older post I am following the Boss JBL with interest, but dont know whether a BB is the right way to go for circuit use!


Thats my $10 worth of rambling

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Old 01-17-2005, 02:43 PM
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The JBL is a totally different design to the Berry Space frame. The Berry car is more like a Lotus seven design, ie small diameter tube using triangulation and a backbone design. The JBL is a semi-monocoque design.

Looking at the design there is more material in the JBL, which I would have figured more weight, but I am sure would be tortionally stronger.

The Berry car has a full cage integrated in its design, which should give back some extra stregnth as well.

It would certainly be an interesting thing to see you get a JBL all up and running and have a run off between the 2!

My car is a big powered sledge really - and I agree with Richard on the smaller power better design being better - but I still enjoy my car, it is fun, and I couldnt afford to start with a new car at the moment - thats what family does!

You are right Grahame Berry is a hot rodder, and drag racer at heart, and he didnt expect the normal Cobras to be raced. But I think the space framed cars went really well considering this was his first foray into a race car.

Like I said - I wasnt trying to get at Richard - I respect his experience, just trying to give you a local alternative.
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Old 01-17-2005, 07:23 PM
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Bevan,

Not to worry. My skin is thicker than you would believe.

My comments are but sport.

However, I think that it is best for you folks to deal locally with designers and builders. The cost is just too much to bring a US car to NZ.

Plus, the JBL will not be any better than a local design and will not fit your mindset as well as a NZ offering.

Buy NZ. That is where your support is. Stick with it.

Leave the Yank stuff alone. We are all smoke and mirrors here.
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Old 01-17-2005, 08:01 PM
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Gees Richard I bet your wife slaps you sometimes.
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:23 PM
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Default Buying US

Hey Richard,


Your innovative chassis design appeals to me, and the workmanship quality.

I have several guys who bring containers in every few weeks, a car could be brought in for not a great amount, then there is the 12.5% Tax, but no duty here! Plus our dollar is up against yours so I have recently secured an additional $US12000 in US Funds over your basic stage 1 price, so if our dollar drops it should bother me!
Quote:
However, I think that it is best for you folks to deal locally with designers and builders. The cost is just too much to bring a US car to NZ.Plus, the JBL will not be any better than a local design and will not fit your mindset as well as a NZ offering.

Buy NZ. That is where your support is. Stick with it.

Leave the Yank stuff alone. We are all smoke and mirrors here.
Buying NZ there is nothing that compares with your build and quality! Regarding support I have found if I want something done properly its best to do it yourself! The only way is to build a one off, and after building two cars which have taken 8-9 years its a bit like you mention in your closing statement.

Quote:
Keep the fun in it, there's only so much time.
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Last edited by Ant; 01-17-2005 at 10:28 PM..
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:34 PM
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Default Ever think of destroking?

Hey Ant,

You know, all this talk about strokers and big blocks can be a bit boring at times. What about a destroked small block? Say a 302 Dart or R block bored to 4.070", destroke to 2.90" (reduced piston speed and friction), zero balance rotating assembly, solid roller, Yates with 2.20" intakes ported to fill 301ci, and say a single 850cfm or webers. Very light, quick reving and spin it to 10,000 rpm. Sounds nuts but this could be a reasonably good endurance motor that makes a ton of power.

In a light car, not like a heavy JBL lead-sled dog, motors like these can have an advantage. Oh yes, you'll need some valve springs.

There are more options than just small & big block strokers. And, you could actually be different.

John
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:10 PM
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Default JBL

John,

There are many ways of obtaining horsepower, originally I thought you were fitting a 429 series 385 block to your car, when in fact its a Yates headed smallblock. I assume that your main purpose is racing, and there wouldn't be enough reason for Richard to modify his chassis for the different style heads when most JBL users may drive their cars on the road as well?
The Yates heads would also make it into a 4500-8000rpm engine I expect!
Fitting 5.4 quad cam GT40 type engine would require a total redesign to fit that big wide alloy blob in.

I would be interested in doing a 331 and trying to achieve 500bhp that would make a fun road and track car. The only other option (dont like 416-427 strokers) would be a 393 with good gear, that should make 550-600bhp!
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Old 01-19-2005, 12:19 AM
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John,
You are not kidd'n. That 302 of yours when not running is defnitely a wolf in sheeps clothing til you start 'er up and hammer that throttle down - POW!
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