The Anger Of The Left

[Sizzler]

I call myself a liberal.

I can take the abuse.

In my opinion, it is the people from the right who lash out. They lash out, put down and blame others for actions they supported at one time, made by people they believed in at one time.

It is all about spin. They spin their anger back upon the people who can most honestly say "I told you so", and spew vitrolic hatred at anyone who disagrees with them. They are a pack of men happiest behind the scenes, away from real danger, who can pound the keyboards but not a real person.

I am really tired of the abuse being heaped upon me as a representative of, if not the truly out-there left, at least the large population of us who are slightly to moderately left of center.

[chopper]

Originally Posted by aharris

Chopper

But put youself in the average Iraqi's place. You have an occupying foreign force in your country that has been ineffective in reducing the violence (more than 26,000 civilian deaths in the past year) or significantly improving my way of life. I'm sure I would be saying thanks very much but please leave.

Mike, you are making the assumption that the lack of incident on US soil is due to the occupation of Iraq. Perhaps it is due to the increased security at borders, or the increased focus by police forces on discovering "terrorist" cells in other countries. I'm hard pressed to see how having troops remain in Iraq maintains security back home.

Perhaps there have been no new attacks because the "terrorists" are satisfied with the effect they have had on the West. Higher prices, increased restrictions on travel, increased government powers, more isolationist policies.

You can't believe that "questioning policy" automatically equates with an attack on the brave men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Andrew

First, I think that YOU are the one ignoring the "average Iraqi's place". That place included murder, kidnapping, torture, confiscation of private property, denial of basic civil rights by the Baathists before Hussein's deposal. It now includes murder, kidnapping, torture, confiscation of private property and denial of basic civil rights by al-Qaeda and Sunni terrorists and death squads. Of the "26,000 civilian deaths" of the past year, how many were due to Muslim terrorists versus how many were due to coalition action? Even the rabidly anti-American BBC lists the number as “hundreds” out of your estimate of 26,000 and reluctantly admits that most of those were killed trying to run coalition-manned checkpoints. A few were killed in collateral damage from coalition attacks; this is certainly regrettable but is unfortunately a part of warfare, especially when the enemy hides in hospitals, schools and mosques. The rest were killed by the terrorists. They were killed because the Muslim fanatics are being supplied with arms and replacements by the network of terrorist organizations around the world. I think the "average" Iraqi citizen is delighted to have us there. It's the murdering scumbags that you and rest of the Pelosi-Reid-Obama-Kennedy surrender crowd seem to support who want us out.

Second, if you think for a New York second that the Muslim fanatics are "satisfied" with the damage caused to date, you're smoking some really expensive stuff.

Third, there has been essentially no "increase security at the borders", which is why the conservatives are livid about the lack of enforcement and are attempting to get something done about it. It's the politicians pandering to the Mexican lobby (Democrats and Republicans alike) who are stopping any meaningful border security improvement. Incidentally, there is just as much concern about the ones coming in over the Canadian border as the ones coming in from the south.

Lastly, as has been said before on numerous occasions, the time for questioning the overall policy of attacking the terrorists is past. The appropriate time for that was BEFORE all of the Democrats (except Senator B. Hussein Obama, of course) signed on to the war effort by voting to support the President’s use of force. Now that we're into it, that discussion is not only moot but provides aid to the enemy in time of war. That's the definition of treason and THAT'S why conservatives believe that it "automatically equates with an attack on the brave men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan." The whole concept of support-the-troops-but-oppose-the-war is a crock of crap. You can't support the troops while proposing to hand the enemy the means to defeat those same troops. Telling the terrorists that we're pulling out in X-months will just make them hunker down and wait and in the end emboldens them to continue and increase their mayhem. When they come out after the coalition departs, the blood-bath will make the present situation look like kindergarden. Remember Pol Pot and the Killing Fields? 1.7 million deaths (20% of Cambodia's population) killed in 4 years when the US pulled out of Southeast Asia? I can't say for certain, but I doubt those 1.7 million folks would agree that things turned out the same regardless of who won the war. Does it have to happen here before you folks learn? Gees Louise, wake up and smell the coffee.

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by chopper

Incidentally, there is just as much concern about the ones coming in over the Canadian border as the ones coming in from the south.

I maybe mistaken but except for that one guy caught trying to get into the US to blow up something on New Years Eve several years ago, there has never been an incident of terrorists entering the US from Canada. Even the one that was caught had crossed back and forth across the Canada / US border several times before being nabbed and I believe that he had flown in and out of LAX with no problem.

I am not saying that there are no terrorists in Canada planning on doing as much damage as they can. I am saying that reports about Canada being a prime entry to the US for terrorists has never been proven. Canada and the US are both democracies and both countries have to deal with problems like individual rights and freedom to move around which make tracking and arresting terrorists quite difficult. Anti terrorists officiers in Canada and the US work in close cooperation with each other.

Closing the Canada / US border would be an economic and financial disaster for both countries. We just happen to be the biggest 2 way trading partners in the world with well over $1B of trade every day. By the way, Canada also happens to be the number 1 supplier of oil to the US.

Getting back to the original topic, people that are too far to the left or too far to the right make little or no attempt to listen to the opinions of others. They tend to think that they are always right and everyone that doesn't agree with them, is wrong.

Wayne

[BeanCounter]

I call myself a conservative.

I can take the abuse.

In my opinion, it is the people from the left who lash out. They lash out, put down and blame others for actions they supported at one time, made by people they believed in at one time.

It is all about spin. They spin their anger back upon the people who can most honestly say "I told you so", and spew vitrolic hatred at anyone who disagrees with them. They are a pack of men happiest behind the scenes, away from real danger, who can pound the keyboards but not a real person.

I am really tired of the abuse being heaped upon me as a representative of, if not the truly out-there right, at least the large population of us who are slightly to moderately right of center.

[Danr55]

Too much television! People have grown used to seeing the earth shaking situations solved in a hour or less by some unsung private eye or cowboy or other type of hero or heroin and they have lost the sense of reality and the will to fight for something until they are defeated or until they can fight no longer.

War is no place for a person who lacks commitment. War is a terrible thing to endure and worse to watch. When you're butt is in the weeds and you are fighting for your life and the lives of your comrads, you rarely have time to think about what's going on. I often thought it was easier being in Vietnam than it was being home and watching about Vietnam on TV and hearing the lies and the half truths that were being passed around like gospel. Had we pressed a while longer, the north was about spent and all but ready to surrender. Read what the Vietnamese said after the US pulled out. They didn't win, the US lost. They quit. We quit.

Seems we are bound to repeat the same mistakes, just like we did in the first Gulf war, again. This time, the consequences will be far reaching and will undoubtedly strike in the heartland of America.. or Canada. It doesn't matter to the falangists. They just want to strike a blow for Allah.

[bomelia]

If the troops were pulled out tomorrow, God knows what would happen. I'm sure there would be chaos in Iraq.

But put youself in the average Iraqi's place. You have an occupying foreign force in your country that has been ineffective in reducing the violence (more than 26,000 civilian deaths in the past year) or significantly improving my way of life. I'm sure I would be saying thanks very much but please leave.



Beancounter, you beat me to it. Dan, a voice of reason.

Mike

[Paul F]

Trying to get back to the original post, or close to it. I have to say that liberals do seem to be more active with their opinions in the form of bumper stickers, demonstrations, initiatives (I don't include jounalists, radio, tv, which have pundits from both sides).
Being on the west coast, this may be a skewed view, but most of the political bumper stickers are liberal in nature covering a variety of subjects. The most I see from the conservative side are 'Support our Troops' (which both liberals or conservatives might display) or 'God bless America'. I don't recall ever seeing a political bumper sticker that is conservative.

Same for demonstrations. Generally, the liberals get out and have something to say.

Is that too much of a generalization or do others notice this?

I'm one of those un-opinionated middle of the road people. Which onlymeans sometimes I lean left and sometimes I lean right, depending upon subject.

[bomelia]

Its true! Conservatives are by their very nature, well, uh, conservative. Instead of shouting silly slogans and printing bumber stickers, they would rather spend time discussing and strategizing. Both methods work, obviously. But because conservatives don't (as a rule) rally, protest, and sloganize does not mean that they (we, or me) do not care. And certainly there are no strict boundaries, some conservatives do protest (witness abortion centers and so on) and some liberals like to think (blogs, op-eds, etc).

Here is the crux. Liberals tend to lean towards emotionalism, stirring up the masses. Conservatives like to try appealing to one's logical side. What can you say? We are all different. Leaders are those who can do it all. Doesn't mean they are good leaders, but they lead none the less. Its really funny to watch liberals try to do intillectual stuff and even funnier to watch conservatives do emotional stuff. It rarely works. But the intended audience gets the point.

Mike

[VRM]

Mike,
I actually wish that conservatives would be unemotional. Perhaps then we would be able to analyze our problems and actually fix them.

Right now I see a lot of people on the left hollering about all kinds of things without offering a fix. I also see a lot of people on the right crying 'traitor' every time someone disagrees with them.

We have massive problems with a lot of things, but folks on the right frequently end up saying that you hate America if you point out any of those flaws.

I'm sick of the lack of ability to find solutions of the majority of the left, but I'm even more sick of the blinders that many on the right wear.

Steve

[Jamo]

Blinders my ass...we simply keep our eyes on the ball.

[VRM]

Well, then maybe its time to actually pick it up and do something with the bloody thing instead of making things worse.

Steve

[Jamo]

As least we're in the game instead of b!tching from the sidelines.

[VRM]

Jamo,
I'll give you that one, and I would hazzard a guess that if the left were running things the score would be about zero. Problems is - the score with the right running things is in negative numbers. Put some real numbers on the board or let someone else play.

Steve

[VRM]

BTW, Jamo, you never did answer my question about Iraq. What is the job there? I'm curious as to what you think it is.

Steve

[Jamo]

Actually, I found my answer to be quite profound, specific and logical...a masterful piece of work if forced to admit it.

How do you propose to insure the safety of this place we call America if we pull out?

[imagine2frolic]

At last this thread turned back to a debate instead of bullying, and name calling. It was beginning to turn into schoolyard tactics.

[aharris]

Mike

If the troops were pulled out tomorrow, God knows what would happen. I'm sure there would be chaos in Iraq.

But put youself in the average Iraqi's place. You have an occupying foreign force in your country that has been ineffective in reducing the violence (more than 26,000 civilian deaths in the past year) or significantly improving my way of life. I'm sure I would be saying thanks very much but please leave.



Beancounter, you beat me to it. Dan, a voice of reason.

Mike

Not sure what you mean?

Andrew

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by aharris

Mike



Not sure what you mean?

Andrew

On the one hand you state chaos would ensue, then on the other (if it were up to you), you would want the troops to leave.

Mike

[aharris]

Dan

Too much television! People have grown used to seeing the earth shaking situations solved in a hour or less by some unsung private eye or cowboy or other type of hero or heroin and they have lost the sense of reality and the will to fight for something until they are defeated or until they can fight no longer.

War is no place for a person who lacks commitment. War is a terrible thing to endure and worse to watch. When you're butt is in the weeds and you are fighting for your life and the lives of your comrads, you rarely have time to think about what's going on. I often thought it was easier being in Vietnam than it was being home and watching about Vietnam on TV and hearing the lies and the half truths that were being passed around like gospel. Had we pressed a while longer, the north was about spent and all but ready to surrender. Read what the Vietnamese said after the US pulled out. They didn't win, the US lost. They quit. We quit.

Seems we are bound to repeat the same mistakes, just like we did in the first Gulf war, again. This time, the consequences will be far reaching and will undoubtedly strike in the heartland of America.. or Canada. It doesn't matter to the falangists. They just want to strike a blow for Allah.

Well stated. I agree to a point. There is no easy solution. But if you take the Vietnam example, how is Vietnam doing now. Has the withdrawl lead to the spread of communism in the region. Are the Vietnamese people better off or worse off. How would things have been different if the communists had been defeated.

Andrew

[Sizzler]

Sorta agree with the nuke-em idea, sorta, kinda...

It's time for the region to come out from under Mommy's (USA) skirts.
Everyone mollifies the Saudi's, who are the big beneficiaries of all this 'support'.

Time to take over the oil fields. Send the Saudi's back to camel ranching, and cut off OBL's funding. Just make sure the Saudi's, and Oman and all the other tiny, but highly profitable fiefdoms down there know it was all due to Osama. Time for the fat princes to lose some weight and send all their Indonesia servants back home. The party is over. Pouring sand into the sea to build ugly houses on is the last straw. There is no shortage of beach front property down there, just a shortage of 'shortage'. They need to go back to their nomadic lives and leave the oil to people who actually need it.

Is that left enough?