Obamacare Meltdown

[Excaliber]

"Palin" and "dream" in the same sentence? I think that's only allowed if it's a wet dream...

[cobraduke]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

"Palin" and "dream" in the same sentence? I think that's only allowed if it's a wet dream...

Nice Earnie, now I see why you were silent for so long on these forums. You need to consider that option again, or think about your posts more carefully before you post it. Counter the ideas, not the messenger, especially in such a sleezey way. Your lack of tact is much more objectionable and destructive of dialogue than some frustrated folks raising their voices at open meetings when the politicians persist in reading misleading or outright false prepared statements rather than answering the concerns of participants who have actually read some of the proposed legislation while they obviously have not.

My opinion is that Obama, Reid and Pelosi et al. are about to back down on government run health insurance option and may be some of the new direct regulation of health care in these bills; however, that will not fix the crisis as it leaves in place all the perverse incentives to over bill, over treat, over medicate and over sue of the current system, largely in place due to GOVERNMENT intervention at the national and state levels that make cost saving and innovation from new entry into this market costly or impossible. For sure those that profit from such government restrictions on heath care entry will line up to support this.

When costs continue to escalate and treatment continues to become more the province of risk managers and lawyers, there will be another push to grab hold of health care and nationalize it. I see that as exactly the wrong direction to go, but that is likely when so many view bureaucrats as the solution to every problem and have so little appreciation how largely unregulated markets work to promote innovation, individual consumer choice and cost control. Only the government can make me buy something I don't want or prevent a seller from selling me something I do want. General motors never got a dime from me after the Citation I bought in 1981. Now they have claim to my income and that of my children and grandchildren without our permission. The same will result from increased and continued government control of health care.

Now about Obama winning all the fights. Agreed. And the national deficit for this year is over $1.6 trillion, more that four times the previous record in 2008. Which was nothing to sneeze at. Thanks to all who empowered this congress and this president for passing on to my kids and their kids an ADDITION to their share of the public debt of $5100 per person in just this year for which they will pay interest on the rest of their lives. Don't even try to give me the inherited argument. Demo congress passed it all with Obama voting yea.

For those of you who like the "hope" and "change" we now have, I'll keep my choice and you keep the "change". My hope is that 2010 sees a dramatic reversal of the current death spiral we have embarked upon in 2006 and 2008 and that a viable alternative emerges. Honestly the difference between the two parties is a matter of degree, not principles. Do you like to slide down this razor blade slow or fast? That has been about it. McCain was a perfect example as was Bush. A 3+ trillion dollar national government is way too big. Over 40 trillion dollars of unfunded obligations is absurd. The real issue of equity and justice is the intergeneration transfer of debt to our children. If you want to buy health care for someone who is an illegal or between coverages or self insured or young and dumb or is lacking job skills, then do it privately, but please allow me the same choice. I do my charity locally where there are no bureaucrats skimming off the top and where I know the need is real. Don't use your social concern to steal the money from our kids so you can feel noble on the cheap. When did we get the right to make such choices for the future generations?

Catch a clue, not only is this huge in direct present and future costs, it will kill future private investment, private jobs, private choice and increasing living standards. I lived in Europe for six years, it is dying quickly under the weight of the costs of exactly this sort of all encompassing government social welfare entitlements and regulation. We are close on their heals and gaining ground. Obama might win that one also. Hope is not a method and change is not good in and of itself. We are getting what we asked for, but I can not see this as positive.

Mike

[VRM]

Originally Posted by cobraduke

Nice Earnie, now I see why you were silent for so long on these forums. You need to consider that option again, or think about your posts more carefully before you post it. Counter the ideas, not the messenger, especially in such a sleezey way. Your lack of tact is much more objectionable and destructive of dialogue than some frustrated folks raising their voices at open meetings when the politicians persist in reading misleading or outright false prepared statements rather than answering the concerns of participants who have actually read some of the proposed legislation while they obviously have not.

Mike

Mike,
I agree with pretty much the rest of what you said.
Regarding this part - there are plenty of others on this forum who do exactly the same thing. They are on all sides of pretty much all the debates. We all do it from time to time. Some more than others.
Steve

[cobra bill]

Originally Posted by RAZOR
Our Founding Fathers were fearful of government tyranny, they gave us the Bill of Rights to protect the people from the government,that is certainly valid fear today

Your are only half correct here, they worried about the government having a standing Army and in the beginning it was supposed to be a well trained militias, ready to form a standing army, they feared a tyrannical government would turn the army on its people. At no time were they ever worried about the government helping the sick!

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

Originally Posted by RAZOR
Our Founding Fathers were fearful of government tyranny, they gave us the Bill of Rights to protect the people from the government,that is certainly valid fear today

Your are only half correct here, they worried about the government having a standing Army and in the beginning it was supposed to be a well trained militias, ready to form a standing army, they feared a tyrannical government would turn the army on its people. At no time were they ever worried about the government helping the sick!

Wow, the liberal mind is a wondrous thing.

First they were fearful of a standing army not because the government would use it but that the army itself would overthrow the government. They knew history, and that Oliver Cromwell, under the authority of Parliament,was victorious against King Charles I who had attempted to force uniformity of religious worship and to rule without Parliament,had then turned on Parliament when it became unruly, and splintered. Cromwell dispersed Parliament and became a military dictator in 1649, he called himself the Lord Protector, it remained a commonwealth(republic) until 1660, then returned to a monarchy.
King George III said at the end of the Revolutionary War that George Washington would truly be the greatest man on earth if he relinquished his power and army. Which he did to the surprise of England and the relief of America.

Now to the absurd statement about the "government helping the sick" absolutely they were fearful of an omnipotent government, Thom. Jefferson "Government at its best, governs the lest". Thomas Paine,"Government even in its best state is but a necessary evil" Checks and balances,consent of the governed, limited government those was the guiding principles.

We in the USA have now taken on the European thinking and it will emasculate us as it has them, they think government is the ultimate source of all rights,law and justice. The Founding Fathers, on the other hand held that man possessed certain inherent rights simply by the virtue of his humanity, and that governments were merely social constructions, created for the purpose of safeguarding those rights, and health care is not one of them.
Your worldview is that society should ensure equal outcome, our Founding Fathers was that society should ensure equal opportunity. I am fighting for the right to fail, and may I add humbly, I have been very successful up to this point in my life.

This nations founding was a complete break with the whole of human history, from out of the centuries of tyranny,& oppression, Thom. Paine wrote"We have it in our power to begin the world over again" We are now the first and longest living Constitutional Republic in history. What Jefferson termed as the "Grand Experiment" in liberty and freedom, is speedily sinking into the cesspool of government control and being strangled by the tentacles of a far reaching bureaucracy.

These are quotes of Thomas Jefferson, "A wise and frugal government which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned, this is the sum of good government."

"Dependence begets subservience & venality suffocates the germ of virtue"

Experience hath shown that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have in time & by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny"

[Jamo]

"...no ware in the constitution does it say either should have any influence."

SpaceBill...please understand that I do not moderate you because of your liberal rants or underdeveloped ability to understand the world around you.

It's the grammar thing. Another day off...spend it with a good dictionary.

[Jamo]

Everyone else...keep it down to a low rumble, please.

I'm not sure what there is to really argue about. For eight years we heard screaming and yelling, derogatory remarks against our President by Americans either here and worst...when they were abroad, demonstrations against the war while we were at war...the likes of which haven't been seen since Jane Fonda snuggled up to Ho, the Dixie Chicks, etc.

...and liberals accused conservatives of treating them as anti-American because of these activities. We read about that right here on these pages.

Here, we're having a conversation across this country about something which is internal to this country, and the liberals are branding outbursts at town hall meetings as un-American?

What is un-American are our representatives cancelling meetings out of fear that folks might let them know what they think.

[cobra de capell]

Nicely stated, Jamo!

People seem overwhelmed by the entire mess. It appears that liberals have thrown everything into their bills to see what floats, for example....

Sections 440 and 1904 of the House bill (Page 838), under the heading "home visitation programs for families with young children and families expecting children." The programs (provided via grants to states) would educate parents on child behavior and parenting skills.

The bill says that the government agents, "well-trained and competent staff," would "provide parents with knowledge of age-appropriate child development in cognitive, language, social, emotional, and motor domains ... modeling, consulting, and coaching on parenting practices," and "skills to interact with their child to enhance age-appropriate development."

Now, First: how can we afford to do this?; Second: why would we want to do this?

People all over America are confused - it seems as if Obama and his team just want a bill passed with tons of stuff included so that they can use it to achieve some very strange goals.

By the way, the Republicans have an alternative plan - http://rsc.tomprice.house.gov/Soluti...tsFirstAct.htm

[Excaliber]

Wouldn't matter who was in office right now, with the economy in ruins, the way it is now, ANY sitting President would be sinking in approval.

Some of you guys seriously underestimate the intelligence of forum members and the public...

On another note, I see Great Britain is getting fed up with the distortations of their health program by American radicals. The English talk funny, but their not stupid.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

fed up with the distortations of

...you missed this one.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Wouldn't matter who was in office right now, with the economy in ruins, the way it is now, ANY sitting President would be sinking in approval.

Some of you guys seriously underestimate the intelligence of forum members and the public...

On another note, I see Great Britain is getting fed up with the distortations of their health program by American radicals. The English talk funny, but their not stupid.

Wouldn't matter who was in office right now, with the economy in ruins, the way it is now, ANY sitting President would be sinking in approval.

Ahh, the old, "its Bush's fault excuse." Make that the VERY, VERY old, excuse.

Some of you guys seriously underestimate the intelligence of forum members and the public...

You certainly DO!

[Bartruff1]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Wouldn't matter who was in office right now, with the economy in ruins, the way it is now, ANY sitting President would be sinking in approval.

Some of you guys seriously underestimate the intelligence of forum members and the public...

On another note, I see Great Britain is getting fed up with the distortations of their health program by American radicals. The English talk funny, but their not stupid.

It might be impossible to underestimate the intelligence of the American Public. You don't even have to look at the data ....you might get a good idea from just looking at the popular media. What is even more disturbing is that not only are they dumb they are mean. How TV characters like Simon Cowell, Judge Judy, Nance Grace, Jerry Springer...etc.. can be popular is a bad sign that a small but significant portion of of our society is badly damaged.

[Jamo]

The English talk funny, but their not stupid.

Is this a liberal thing?

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Jamo

The English talk funny, but their not stupid.

Is this a liberal thing?

Yes, they are a sloppy bunch, at best.

Here's something for your use......

[Excaliber]

...man the grammar police are out enforce today.

So Dan40, are you saying Bush is the cause of the current economic meltdown? I didn't say that, but the cause could be argued that way.

distortation, is that a word? Sounds like a good one.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

...man the grammar police are out enforce today.

So Dan40, are you saying Bush is the cause of the current economic meltdown? I didn't say that, but the cause could be argued that way.

distortation, is that a word? Sounds like a good one.

Everybody knows, "Its Bush's fault." is the liberal mantra. And your next sentence after the "poor economy" would naturally be, "Its Bush,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
And "could be argued that way? You got wood just trying to make that arguement.

[Excaliber]

Frankly, I just don't see putting the blame entirely on Bush. We've been headed down this path for many years and there is plenty of "blame" to go around.

I recall when I was looking to buy another house a few years back and getting approved for a $500,000 loan on an income that would NO WAY justify that. With a tiny down payment to boot. THAT was my first clue something was really wrong with the real estate market. I turned it down, didn't want to borrow money from a bank that was stupid enough to lend me that much!

The real point is: What are going to do about the crisis now? It's a pretty deep hole were in.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Frankly, I just don't see putting the blame entirely on Bush. We've been headed down this path for many years and there is plenty of "blame" to go around.

I recall when I was looking to buy another house a few years back and getting approved for a $500,000 loan on an income that would NO WAY justify that. With a tiny down payment to boot. THAT was my first clue something was really wrong with the real estate market. I turned it down, didn't want to borrow money from a bank that was stupid enough to lend me that much!

The real point is: What are going to do about the crisis now? It's a pretty deep hole were in.

Ahhh, STOP digging deeper in debt? That would be a start.

[Excaliber]

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes you gotta spend to make or save money. Escalating cost of health care aint going away. We need to take action, have been needing to take action for a long time.

(...aint, gotta, eh eh, that should fire up theire grammEr police).

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes you gotta spend to make or save money. Escalating cost of health care aint going away. We need to take action, have been needing to take action for a long time.

(...aint, gotta, eh eh, that should fire up theire grammEr police).

Further bankrupt our already bankrupt country for the lazy and ignorant that will NOT help themselves. How could that be a bad idea?

Why don't you go out and spend 25 times your net worth tomorrow. Using your spend to make money theory, you should be worth 25 times more in a couple of months.

But I bet you'll have a real hard time cashing a check, anywhere.