Pro vs Con Re: CSX and Superformance/ERA

[427 Street]

I am still new here (but not new to Cobras), and I like that this Forum labels itself as "unbiased" and I hope it stays that way. I think the moderators do an excellent job of keeping the peace as do the members.

I agree with most of the comments above. It does not matter to me what car someone has but it is important to me that they are passionate about cars, the hobby, and the history of this particular car.

The one statement that I do not agree with is "All non CSX cars should be worth $40K tops... it's a cheap car to make, it is so elemental that to pay more that $40K for it is nuts, UNLESS it is a SHELBY Cobra" and the "mystique" comment. Unless it is a real Cobra, that mystique is only when you see a real 60's car, sit in a real car, see the real patina and wear of a real car.

The "$40k tops" is such an inaccurate statement and almost insulting. My real 1964 427, built, was about $20k alone. The amazing paint job is almost $8k, and then you add in the chassis, the major parts, all of the most historically accurate parts you can find, and the price moves up pretty quickly. That price is usually north of $40k.

My 'mystique' is when I start up that '64 427...the history of that motor, the sound and feel of that motor, the SMELL of that motor, and that it takes almost 10 minutes to warm up makes me feel like I went back almost 50 years in time.

My advice: buy what you like, buy what you can afford, drive it with pride and enjoy it.

[csx4017]

I have a list of design changes for my CSX that center around suspension,etc. Kirkham has incorporated most of them in his fine cars. Nick has fabricated A-Arms,etc to improve the CSX4000/6000 Cobras. SA has ( as previously stated ) spent their efforts on Mustang Mods. I understand that is a good business decision vs CSX product support.
CSX PRO'S
1) Excellent long distance seats
2) Fine brakes for 15 Inch Rims
3) Neutral handling ( my opinion and licensed track instructors )
4) Quality paint job
5) Distributor support was great in my case
CSX CON'S
1) Many suspension pivot joints are non-lube
2) Windshield glass quality
3) Lower door gap should have been weather sealed
4) Carpet grade is a C
5) On your own to trace parts and suppliers
6) Todays pricing is unreal
Given the money I would purchase a Kirkham...............Still love to drive the CSX fast

[Bill Bess]

Great discussion here, but the question is just way too simple.
Question 1. Do you want to buy a factory built car or build it yourself.
2. How much money do you want to throw at it?
3. Bare minimum to build it yourself with the best stuff is $45000. +
4. Get over being the best cobra, original cobra, best handling cobra..whatever...and they are all replicas except for the orignial few built buy Shelby back in the sixties.
5. "Just love the one you brought" as the song goes.
6. I would think the Kirkum is the best ride out there right now..but who cares what I think. I really agree with Patrick...maybe I'll change my name to Carrol Shelby.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bill Bess

I really agree with Patrick...

That's because you took the time to really think about what I wrote.

[Tutosnake]

Oh man! I just, and I mean JUST, finished my response to the above, and fell prey to the funny business of computers. My response was once again very long, and by the time I finished, the forum logged me out, I hit enter and POOF! just like that I lost my text.
Well I am really exhausted after such a feat... and my weak brain does not allow for a regurgitation of written words here. So i will try later...

Till then (and possibly the best for all) I will just apologize if I hurt someone's feelings. Not my intension.

On my way to drive my over-priced CSX. Ciao!

Hector

[tkb289]

Originally Posted by Tutosnake

Oh man! I just, and I mean JUST, finished my response to the above, and fell prey to the funny business of computers. My response was once again very long, and by the time I finished, the forum logged me out, I hit enter and POOF! just like that I lost my text ....

Hector

Hector … One suggestion to avoid losing a post by being logged out when typing a long reply, is to first draft the reply in a text program (Word or similar) then log back into the thread and copy & paste.

[decooney]

Ron,

I don't think you'll get the pros/cons answer YOU are really looking for without determining your critical goals and objective(s) first. Maybe it starts with your budget limit you have set for yourself. It's kind of like asking "what house should I buy" without stating price range, then what neighborhood, single story vs. two story, minimum yard and lot size, etc. If you can identify what some of your minimum requirements are, it makes it easier to figure it out from there starting with budget, then whether or not you want to build it or buy it new or used as a completed car.

As you know, we have one of every make in our town. Line 'em up side by side and each will have its own unique appeal and feel. One might start with sitting in one of each to see how it feels in terms of "fitment" for starters.

[AL427SBF]

OP's Question: ... what would be the advantage of owning a Shelby CSX Cobra as opposed to a Superformance/ERA. Engine/drivetrain/body (fiberglass) being equal.

Answer: None, all equal

Replicas do not appreciate with time, finding a good deal on one that is well built with quality components overrides any perceived delta between builders or "name recognition". Cost to Buy - Selling Price later = How good a deal you originally got. A CSX now versus a CSX when Shelby was alive are worth the same, it's still a CSX and his death does not diminish or add to the intrinsic value.

Interesting that this worth question is so important to many, worth is what the market will bare at sale - a moving target. So if you intend to flip it or have a crystal ball - getting caught up in "brand recognition" among the reputable builders is a waste of time, they're all good.

Cost to Buy - Selling Price later = How good a deal you originally got, that is the bottom line when you bailout.

I thought owning a cobra replica was so you could enjoy driving a little piece of history that excels in the performance department. They all do that, so get the one right for you and your budget, don't get hung up on "worth". I would even say if perceived value is a buying point, then maybe the head is stuck up the ol' tailpipe 'cause that ain't what this experience is about.

Bring it on!

[DougD]

For me, it would be CSX, ERA, and then Superformance.

In the world of fiberglass repliCobras, the CSX is alone at the top of the heap. Just look at the resale prices. No other glass car comes close. Mine has gone up in value quite a bit while I have owned it, despite the "experts" telling you that they are a bad investment. A rising tide floats all boats. The early ones are very close to an original. The later ones diverge a bit with suspension, electricals, gauges, etc.

I can spot a Superformance from a half mile away. The shape of the rear fenders and the grille opening/radiator are the giveaways for me. High quality, though, with many happy owners.

The ERAs are a little tougher to spot as their body and trim are pretty accurate. You have to pop the hood for a look to really be sure. Again, high quality, excellent support.

If you add in aluminum bodies, then Kirkham makes its entrance in the poll. But they don't make fiberglass Cobras, so that's not relevant to your question.

If I was buying again, I'd try to find a CSX glass 289 USRRC/FIA replica with a snotty small block and Webers. Just perfect.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by DougD

For me, it would be CSX, ERA, and then Superformance.

In the world of fiberglass repliCobras, the CSX is alone at the top of the heap. Just look at the resale.

Agree on the resale, but based on the examples I've seen I'd put CSX behind Kirkham and ERA in terms of engineering and quality. Just my opinion.

[Lucia289]

Originally Posted by DougD

For me, it would be CSX, ERA, and then Superformance.

If I was buying again, I'd try to find a CSX glass 289 USRRC/FIA replica with a snotty small block and Webers. Just perfect.

Or buy the superformance 289 FIA/USRRC - not sure you will spot any difference

[razerwire]

Shelby approved 22 full competion cars to be built by Finishline Motorsports in Las Vegas . Shelby wanted them to use his rear end and had say in some other parts, and had special badges made for cars. The cars were far from full rollers. I think only 12 were finished before Finishline closed.

[razerwire]

Side thought. Does anyone know who signs the M.S.O. now that Shelby is gone?

[marklotus]

Carroll Shelby via autopen and John Luft, President

[Hydramada]

Wow, you guys will fight and argue just for the sake of fighting and arguing.

Locate and drive all three and buy the one YOU like most as suggested in the first response by Mark IV.

[CSX4815]

Originally Posted by Hydramada

Wow, you guys will fight and argue just for the sake of fighting and arguing.

Locate and drive all three and buy the one YOU like most as suggested in the first response by Mark IV.

Exactly! Thank you!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Hydramada

Wow, you guys will fight and argue just for the sake of fighting and arguing.

Hey, where else can you go and have some one tell you that you wasted all your money and that their replica is best, even though their self-proclaimed best replica is made with fiberglass, when the originals were made with aluminum.

And then, insults nearly every owner of an original 2000 or 3000 series Cobra because they paid more than $150,000 for a simplistic car. I don't think Ferrari GTO's or 250's were complicated either, but sheesh, some folks have paid $10,000,000 for those simplistic cars, give or take a few million. And wait a second, what about those folks that paid $50,000,000 or whatever for a few crappy swirls of paint by Rembrandt, Picasso or Van Gogh.

Oy vey.

[Tutosnake]

Gee, back when I first joined this forum, I was led to believe that this was a group of well intentioned, tough skin, sunna of guns that could handle pretty much anything you threw their way... why are we talking about insulting anybody?
Here's what I see.
A lot of people talk about a CSX6000 not being a genuine Shelby, yada, yada... Right in this thread, we see how some of you still criticize the guy who spent more money on a CSX only because of the "lose" relationship to the Shelby name. Further yet, a replica cannot be the best replica unless it is aluminum, for starters. It makes more sense to some to buy another brand and/or build the car themselves, rather than waste the extra money for just a glass bodied CSX number, and a fancy paper MSO automatically signed by a dead guy... besides, these other brands of replicas are even better quality than the cSX product, and that is a no brainer. Wow, do yo think a CSX4000/6000/7000/9000 owner does not find it "insulting" when people talk like that? Well, I am a CSX replica owner and I DO NOT. For all I know, you guys are right all the way.

However, the OP wanted to know why one replica may be a better choice than the others. This is, as posted by more than a few sensible guys here, a very SUBJECTIVE matter. There is no right answer. Only the perception of an owner/driver can be reported here, as an absolute statement in essentially impossible in these matters of the heart.

I wrote about why I thought my CSX car is a better choice. When someone is about to read another person's opinion on why their car is a better choice, that someone needs to buckle up and expect to hear (read) an opinion that will most likely rub him/her the wrong way... unless the two own the same car LOL. Just because you don't agree with what you read, it does not mean you can automatically label it "an insult". Especially, when you label it an insult on behalf of third persons!

I called these cars cheap. I made a mistake. I should have said they SHOULD be cheap. Including mine!! Who are we guys kidding? Even the best Kirkham, ERA and CSX car is a joke when it comes to fit and finish. Who has perfect fitting panels? Who got heavy duty, sturdy wipers and mirrors? Who got perfect, smooth adjusting, sleek sports seats? Who got swift, quiet, hardware? Who's car is smooth and non rattling? Who's car here has smooth, exact, always reliable instruments? Which car CSX, ERA, Kirkham, or else has it all? These car are cheap. And the buyer should know that from the beginning! Wether you buy a roller from Las Vegas, or you build it in your backyard, these cars will never have the craftmanship of a Mercedes, Jaguar, Aston, Porsche, and YES, even Ferraris of the same era... that is the plain truth.

I will post this and continue...

[Tutosnake]

Whether you build it yourself, or buy a roller and have it finished by a third party, the vast availability of parts and resources make these cars everything, but exotic. You cannot say the same of a '62 GTO... not in a million years! The few serious replicas of a GTO or a 500TR are still around a cool $1M. And these use an ORIGINAL Ferrari drivetrain from a donor such as a 250 GTE or a 330. So $35M, although still stupid money, even for billionaires, makes a hell of a lot more sense in that market than $750K to 1.5M for a car that has been replicated over and over, and that sometimes may be indistinguishable from those $50K replicas. What is so exotic about an original Cobra (unless it is one of the 6 coupes or FIA roadsters)? It is not in its parts and labor, that is for sure. It is the Mystique, the Shelby mystique. And the fact that 900 were built. to some that rarity in numbers is enough to pay a cool Mil. It's their money, but it doesn't mean it makes sense. I am not going to get into the collectibility of a Ferrari vs. a Cobra. I did not write the rules of that game.

Which leads me to remind ourselves: what you paid for your replica is not necessarily what it is worth. I too paid a large amount of dough to get my NOS '68 427 FE Side oiler iron block engine. However, if I had the knowledge and skills, I know I could have built it for half the money. Likewise, if I had been a metallurgist with awesome bending skills, and a perfect welding ability, I could have finished an aluminum body for much less that $50K. But guess what I am neither, and so it goes that I overpaid for the car. Third parties (dealers, builders, suppliers) are here to help us achieve our goals and they are trying to make a living, which is absolutely fine! That is why I overpay for an otherwise cheap/easy/uncomplicated car to build.

And the Mystique comment? Well another subjective matter. That comment was simply my opinion, and it is not to be considered by anyone a cannon of Shelby matters. I leave that to the Gurus here. Certainly not made to hurt anybody's feelings. And why would it insult or hurt anyone? It is personal, and varies from person to person (and from car to car). I only stated what made me go for "overpaying" for a glass CSX car. I stand by my comment. You guys have said it: all these cars can look the same!! Therefore, If it is not even vaguely and loosely associated with Shelby, it does not carry the mystique. In my case, the CSX number stamped on the chassis, and that questionable MSO make the car closer to a Shelby of the past than any other build, unless someday another party can stamp the number and carry the MSO. UNTIL then, my car is a SHELBY and the others are not. Very simple, really, and it should not "insult" anyone.

In summary, life is short, and don't just assume that the forum here is to insult or ridicule, or offend anyone. What would be the fruits of that? If an opinion bothers you, read a second time, and perhaps you will find another meaning that was not there in the first place. If it still bothers you, and it means so much to you, then discuss it. But don't label the source as insulting, or offending, or whatever. I personally do not gain or lose anything with my comments expressed here. This taught me it is probable best to shut up,and keep it to myself.

BTW was drive today was awesome: absolutely clear skies, with a huge, bright sun and 68 degrees... drove around town forever. The reason I overpaid for that CSX...
Hector

[fordracing65]

Why is a Kirkham even brought up in the thread, He wanted to know between, ERA, Superformance or CSX, LOL.. Ok, I got more BEER and POPCORN, Continue with the thread...