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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2002, 07:54 PM
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Default Webers on a 460

I'm trying to decide if I want to go fuel injected or carbureted. The other day I was at a car show and there was a beautiful replicar ( ERA I think ) with a FE motor and Webers. I know F.I. is going to cost about $3k. I was just wondering how much a Weber set up is. Ballpark is fine. Also if anyone here is using Webers on a 460 are there any hood clearance problems when using a real air filter ( not the individual screen/stacks ) ?
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Old 05-13-2002, 10:48 AM
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There is a specific intake manifold for webers on a 460 on a cobra. They machine the carb mounting flange a little lower and at an angle so the carbs clear the hood. The intake alone is very expensive, and four webers are not cheap either. I have never seen one running any aircleaner other than the screens, no room I suppose.
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Old 05-13-2002, 12:05 PM
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Default re webbers

I am not an expert by any means on Webbers but if you plan to drive the car on the street and use them be prepared to use a lot of gas and have to keep tuning them. No carb makes more power when they are tuned right and they do look awsome, but are impractical for normal street use. We used them in my racing days but we had mechanics to tune the things up. I know two people that had then on Shelby GT-350 Mustangs and both took the cars back afterabout a month and had four barrel carbs put opn as they drove them on the street.

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Old 05-13-2002, 12:52 PM
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Ballpark ... $5,500 U.S.
There are other things you need to add into the equasion. Webers do not have enough vacuum under the carb to operate anything, such as a distributors vacuum advance or power brakes.Also you need a specific camshaft to work with weber carbs,the duration is more critical. Gas milage...there is none,it's 1/2 of what it should be with a 4 barrel. Good setup for racing,just alot more to go wrong on the street.
Perry.
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Old 05-13-2002, 01:28 PM
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Lets just say you better plan on over $5000 for the webers...if you get a good set that doesn't need to be rebuilt then you are lucky because you may get away with $3000-4000 for the carbs and manifold...the rebuild is around $550/carb if you do it and then you need linkage and fuel lines....figure $3000 to get everything rebuilt and on the manifold ready to go...so we are at somewhere between $6000-7000 and now you have to tune it.....Plan on somewhere around $100-1000 worth of jets and misc stuff to tune with.

I have around $8000 in mine right now and I have alot of jets that I bought but didn't necessarily need...can't help it I like having them just in case. You could probably get away with $5000-6000 if you are lucky and do all the work yourself....hehehe...oh and I have been tuning mine for about 4 months now.

Oh yea...I gave up on the screens because it ran my car so rich I couldn't get it tuned....I don't think the filters will fit.

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Old 05-13-2002, 02:43 PM
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Default if it's injection you want

I saw house of cobras' injected small block 351 outrunning virtually everything at willow springs not too long ago. The injection was EFI but the management system was just a few dashpot adjustement screws. Their mechanics said they liked it much better than the speed pro computer. The look was just like webers, 8 individual stacks with their own butterflies. They also said that a 460 version was in the works, hilborn was doing the castings. Don't know price, I knew it was out of my budget, but comparable to webers, but less hassle.
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Old 05-13-2002, 06:40 PM
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Thanks a lot for the input. I had Webers on a 240Z I had years ago and yes they were a pain to get running. I've been leaning toward fuel injection because of the drivability. I just liked the way that FE looked with the Webers. Thanks a lot again
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Old 05-14-2002, 01:44 PM
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>I've been leaning toward fuel injection because of the drivability. I just
>liked the way that FE looked with the Webers.

You can have the look of Webers and still have EFI. Here's a picture
of a Pantera with just such a system:

http://www.panteraPlace.com/images/PP%20Shop%201.jpg

The intake manifold is a Weber and the throttle bodies are from TWM and
look like Weber IDA's. The ones in the picture have stacks but a low
profile version without stacks will fit under most stock hoods. The
major difference will be the fuel rails. Typically, they will be run
in between the throttle bodies. The system in picture is from the
Pantera Performance Center and is around $5500 for a complete ready to
install system (wiring harness, Haltech computer, lines, throttle
bodies, air cleaners, etc.). A number of places will do something
similar for any engine that has a Weber intake. The driving factors
in the cost are the TWM throttle bodies and the computer. A number
of individuals are looking to have the throttle bodies cast elsewhere
(China or Australia) to keep price down and there are a number of
alternate computers that can be used.

Weber no longer manufucatures the 48mm IDA Webers that are typically
used on small block V8's. I'm not sure if Dellorto does or not. In
any case, 48mm IDA's are only sufficient for up to 350 cubes or so.
Above that, you really need a larger venturi. Some of the VW flat four
tuners make larger bore versions for race VW's. Gene Berg is one
of the sources and I think he has them in sizes up to 58mm, though he
also does EFI now.

>Webers do not have enough vacuum under the carb to operate anything,

It's not the carbs fault, it's the fact they are mounted on an
independent runner intake manifold. If you mount them on a
plenum intake, they'll provide vacuum signal like a four barrel.
That said, you can get vacuum enough to run power brakes with
proper plumbing in an IR manifold. The vacuum oscillates in an
independent runner with the positive and negative spikes cancelling
out. A check valve in the runner line will do the trick, I believe.

>Also you need a specific camshaft to work with weber carbs, the duration
>is more critical.

Properly set up, independent runner EFI (or a IR Weber) will allow a much
larger cam to be run than with a plenum intake. A friend street drives a
Pantera with 255 deg duration (at 0.050), 105 LSA, and 0.600" lift and
says it's just fine in traffic and will pull from 1500 RPM in 5th gear.
It was a real window rattler with a single Holley on a dual plane intake
and needed 3000 RPM to smooth out. With the IR EFI, he thinks it idles
too well so he plans on increasing the cam duration.

>Gas mileage...there is none, it's 1/2 of what it should be with a 4 barrel.

When properly sized, installed, and tuned, an IR Weber set up can yield
fuel economy very close to a 4 barrel but those are big if's when it
comes to Webers. David Vizard ran a set of Webers on a warmed up 350
Chevy in his work truck and pulled 18+ MPG, as good or better than he
did with a 4 barrel Holley.

>Good setup for racing, just alot more to go wrong on the street.

True, and given the cost, I'd go with a similar IR EFI set-up.
EFI isn't magic and you'll still need to tune the system properly
but it's a lot easier to do that with a lap top than a bunch of
jets, emulsion tubes, and the like (a selection of which is not cheap
for a Weber system, BTW). Also, a wide-band O2 sensor will make tuning
much easier. The DIY-EFI guys have recently brought an inexpensive DIY
wideband o2 to market.

>The injection was EFI but the management system was just a few dashpot
>adjustement screws. Their mechanics said they liked it much better than
>the speed pro computer.

If it only has a few dashpot screws, then it really doesn't have enough
adjustability to work over a wide range of applications. Some systems
use the screws for AFR trim but you still have control over the important
parameters in the control system. I've been looking over injection
computers for a friend's injection project (side draft IR EFI). There's
a lot of factors to consider in computer selection (method of control,
cost, ease of tuning, releiability, support, sensor selection and
compatibility, built-in test etc.). Interestingly enough, a hacked GM
or Ford computer is very attractive. Far better built-in-test than any
aftermarket controller I've reviewed, much cheaper spares (cheap enough
to keep a spare computer and set of sensors with you when you head out on
trips), and an ever expanding user base. With third party software,
tuning may be relatively straight-forward. There's also the Megasquirt
internet DIY EIF project. Also, the Haltech from Australia is relatively
inexpensive due to the current exchange rate.

Dan Jones
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Old 05-14-2002, 02:57 PM
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Thanks for the helpful information, Dan. As always

Mike
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Old 05-14-2002, 03:51 PM
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Talking Hey Dan!

Dano,

I will be taking SPF #541 to the WFC at Gateway Friday through Sunday. if you are over there, look me up, or call my cell phone 314-795-7358

Eric
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Old 05-14-2002, 04:14 PM
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I spoke to Inglese last Friday and Dan Miller told me that they were just told that Weber is making 48IDA carbs brand new again. Also said that there is now an adapter for IDFs and IDAs. Carbs will not necessarily be cheap, tho. He thought they would be about $500 per carb.

Zimmy
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Old 05-14-2002, 04:55 PM
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The dashpot adjustement screws....

The EFI controller I was referring to basically simulates the fuel delivery of mechanical injection.

The only sensor is throttle position. No O2 sensor, no MAP, no crank position, etc.
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:06 PM
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>Thanks for the helpful information, Dan. As always

You're welcome.

>I will be taking SPF #541 to the WFC at Gateway Friday through Sunday.
>if you are over there, look me up, or call my cell phone 314-795-7358

Are you going to show it or race it? I was thinking about showing the
Pantera either Saturday or Sunday but I can only get one day of from
work.

>I spoke to Inglese last Friday and Dan Miller told me that they were
>just told that Weber is making 48IDA carbs brand new again. Also said
>that there is now an adapter for IDFs and IDAs. Carbs will not
>necessarily be cheap, tho. He thought they would be about $500 per carb.
>Zimmy

Thanks for the update. Given what used Weber setups go for, that's not
too bad. $500 per carb (times 4 carbs) plus $400 for the intake plus
aircleaners and linkage and you should still be under $3000 grand.
Pricey, yes but not outrageous. Still, I'd rather go EFI with that
sort of budget.

>The EFI controller I was referring to basically simulates the fuel
>delivery of mechanical injection. The only sensor is throttle position.
>No O2 sensor, no MAP, no crank position, etc.

Sounds like it would be fine for the track but not good on the street.
A friend was toying around with what he calls a de-jection system.
Basically a mechanical system with the pill set up for wide open throttle
and rich everywhere else. His idea was to add an O2 sensor and use it
as a signal to open the bypass and lean out the mixture during part
throttle operation. Interesting approach.

Dan Jones
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:11 PM
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Default Show and Go

Dan

Are you going to show it or race it? I was thinking about showing the
Pantera either Saturday or Sunday but I can only get one day of from
work.


Going to show it, but Saturday going to pull a couple of passes, but have to keep them over 12 sec's, or no more fun.

Eric
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Old 05-15-2002, 02:36 PM
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TWM Induction is about to release a stacked EFI setup for the 460. When I spoke with them earlier this year, they said about $4500, less ECU.



Venom_S
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Old 05-16-2002, 07:47 PM
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You can generate enough vacuum for power brakes with independant runner manifolds.. If they didn't have the ability to restrict airflow at less than WOT, then they would have no vacuum, and the enginge would be running very fast. Tap the runners below the butterflies, run 5/16" line from each runner to a common plenum, an 8 port fuel log works..
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Old 05-16-2002, 08:57 PM
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OK,
They look awesome, sound awesome, carry one heck of a price tag, take constant tuning, and generally have lousy fuel mileage.

But, lets talk serious here, properly tuned, HP gains? I gotta know!

DV -- Are you registered?
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Old 05-17-2002, 08:47 AM
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Talking Ed, what's the difference?

You just described most of the Cobras out there!


Ron
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Old 05-17-2002, 11:15 AM
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I just acquired my car which is running 44 IDF's and found the book by Pat Brooks? which Inglese sells to be very informative and a great guide to tuning. i have synchronized and adjusted idle mixture to get car running well, will be adding bung to exhaust then tuning on the dyno after a head change. The book says to expect to tune at least every 6 months.
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Old 05-17-2002, 11:45 AM
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Charlie,

The IDF's are going to be much easier to tune than IDA's because they have some extra adjustment screws to get the flow over the sync even on all barrels...the IDA's don't have these.... you have to drill holes in the butterfly's to get the numbers even (well thats one way to do it)

I don't buy the 6 month thing...everyone I have talked to and gotten advice from (most of them running IDA's) is that you set them once and you really can almost forget about them...you just need to check them once in a while...

I don't know about gas milage but I can tell you when you run them rich you can fowl plugs really quick and you get some really cool flames out the pipes but the milage sucks!!!!

One of the best ways to set the mixture as I have been told is to actually use a pyrometer (sp). You basically warm the car up and then find a stretch of road....run the car up at full throttle and then just shut it down and and come to a stop....by running the engine up and shutting it down you can look at the burn on the plugs...pull them and find the one thats running correctly and record it....go home and put the pyrometer on the header pipe for that cylinder....adjust the mixture screws until all the headers read the same temp as the header that you recorded earlier.

I will let you know how well it works...oh and be careful on the heads....webers don't like exhaust leaks!!!!!!

Matt
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Last edited by 427Aggie; 05-17-2002 at 11:56 AM..
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