Timing mark lies

[hound dog]

Have been running the cobra now for about 1,000 miles and I thought it ran pretty strong. A friend who helped me with the engine kept telling me "not strong enough". He kept telling me to "check the timing with top dead center". I told him he was full of $hit, the car ran fine and everything lines up on the torsional damper and the numbers say 10 degrees advance. Well, Friday night I took an old plug, removed the center and screwed a 3/8 ths bolt into it and left it protruding about 1 inch. I removed the other plugs and installed the plug with the bolt in it in number 1 cylinder (front on passenger side). Put some masking tape on the balancer, rotated the engine counterclockwise until the piston hit the plug and marked the timing pointer on the balancer. Rotated the engine the other way and marked the timing pointer again. Removed the plug and put the pointer halfway between the marks and removed the tape fully well expecting to see the TDC mark directly under the pointer. Couldn't believe my eyes, the pointer was about 30 degrees off!! I'd been running with the timing about 20 degrees retarded!! Reset everything to the new mark and 10 degree advance. Too much, detonation and engine wouldn't crank very well. I kept retarding until I got the engine to turn over properly when cranking and left it there. Car runs much stronger and no detonation. But now it shows about 10 degrees retarded off the new mark. I have no idea where my timing is now and I'd like to get it right. Anyone advise a next step? If I rotate the distributor a tooth would it put the mark back where it needs to be?
h dog

[mr0077]

H dog, man, I got no idea what to suggest...except check it again (lotsa work)! You described exactly what I did to mine, except my indicated TDC was almost exactly spot on with the measured TDC. What you're describing sounds like the pointer is in the "rong" place. Is there more than one timing cover for your motor (Chevys have at least two)?
If the timing pointer is in the wrong place, you could either mark a new TDC (and 10-degree BTDC mark) on the damper, and use the timing mark you have, or reverse the procedure using the piston stop, except mark where the damper TDC stops on the timing cover, split the difference and move the pointer to that location.

[Mr.Fixit]

I'd recheck the piston TDC before getting too excited.

Rotating the distributor will do nothing to change the relative locations of the dampner to the piston #1's TDC

remember the #1 cylinder is the one farthest forward, not necessarily the one who's sparkplug wire goes to the distributor cap's #1 terminal.

[WYT VNM]

If you did what you said you did correctly, either the pointer or the balancer is wrong. The piston doesn't lie.

Change the location of pointer, remark (there is degreed tape available) the balancer, or get the right stuff for your engine.

Have heard of some engine builders "degreeing" or advancing the cam. No-No on a street FE.

[Scott S]

I see you have a small block, do you have a 3 bolt balancer or a 4 bolt? That would explain the wrong timing marks. Does your water pump intake on the drivers side? If so the pointer should be on the passager side. And vice versa for the older water pump.

Scott S

[HighPlainsDrifter]

H Dog,
You need to check top dead center again, if it has moved from your previous mark your harmonic balancer has rotated on itself and is coming apart. DO NOT RUN engine like that. You can damage your bearings not having an engine in balance. It is much cheeper to buy a new harmonic balancer, junk the old one.
Perry.

[Mr.Fixit]

Originally posted by WYT VNM




Have heard of some engine builders "degreeing" or advancing the cam. No-No on a street FE.

All degreeing a cam is: checking the valves open and close at the same time the cam card says they do.

Advancing the cam can be fine, so long as all valve to piston clearance is checked.

It is possible you did check the piston TDC incorrectly.
The outer ring could be spinning on the hub of the balancer (bad)
Wrong timing pointer / misindexed
The balancer could also have rotated relative to the crank, this chews up the woodruff key slot on the balncer.

check #1 TDC again

[Rick Parker]

Scott S & High Plains Drifter are right on the money. Its one or the other. With the interchangeability of parts it's easy to mix 'em up.

Rick

[poorboy]

Hound Dog;
I would compare the balancer with another one of the same type. The outter ring could have moved in relation to the inner hub.
Poorboy

[RallySnake]

There is one other option. Proform sells a harmonic balancer cover in chrome or black. It's made of plastic but looks like a high quality aftermarket balancer. Speed shops sell them for about $35.00. The timing mark was perfect on mine.

If your balancer has not spun, it could just have the mark in the wrong place for your pointer. When you check TDC again, paint a line with masking tape that runs from the outer ring down to the center of the balancer. That way, if it spins, you will be able to quickly see it (assuming that the pulley doesn't cover the hub). If it does, paint a stripe on the pulley, too.

Paul

[A Snake]

Do check out your balancer and pointer and re-check TDC of piston.

You can "time by ear" or by driving, most of us old timers have done it. It carries the risk of detonation you can't hear with noisey side pipes though.

The easiest way to remember about cam timing and degreeing is that in general, advancing builds more low end and retarding builds more top end. The degreeing itself is simply a mechanical process to assure that the crank and cam are in the proper relationship with eachother. It is done with dial indicators on piston #1 and intake rocker #1 with the heads off.

Unless told otherwise by your (reliable) builder, the cam should be installed at "0". No retard or advance. Those tricks are better left to the all out racer. It is unnecessary for a street engine.

Al

[hound dog]

I have a '74 engine and I think I put everything back the way it came off. Pointer and water pump intake are on the passenger side. I think I'll take the timing light and see if it shows any numbers on the driver side, but it does show the numbers on the passenger side when I hit it there, just way off. My guess is that the outside ring has slipped or spun a bit. Sometime this week I'll remove the plugs and go through the whole TDC thing again and make sure I didn't screw it up. Engine runs good now though, strong on the low end and no detonation "that I can hear". But I know it's marginal and too much money to take a stupid chance with!
h dog

[SCOBRAC]

Please don't flame me for asking this. What piston were you checking.. Are you sure it is #1? Here's why I ask..

Here's the thing.. If you are running an aftermarket distributor with no specific reference to #1 cylinder you have likely changed #1 to something else.. seriously.. As long as the same firing sequence (firing order) is observed you can make any cylinder you want "#1".. The symptoms you describe are completely consistant with your observations.

Find TDC again on the #1 cylinder.. Pull the distributor cap.. what wire is the rotor pointing at? There is your problem. Dial in a few degrees.. 8, 10, whatever.. Pull the dist. out and realign the #1 terminal of the cap.. Problem solved..

[SCOBRAC]

Or.. you can find the "#1" spot on the firing order, in this case not the #1 cylinder with the timing light at idle.. check all the wires.. One of them will be firing at about 8-10 degrees BTC. That is your (actual) "#1"

[DAVID GAGNARD]

H dog;

Not too sure about being out 30 degrees,but on my 351-W, the timing pointer bracket actually has a small slot in the bolt holes and can be moved back and forth 15 degrees..... When building an engine,I always check TDC before putting the heads on. What I do is bring #1 piston to TDC and put my timing pointer on and my harmonic balancer and see where the #'s line up. I then adjust my pointer to TDC and mark everything carefully,that way I know for sure at TDC my pointer corresponds with TDC on the balancer.... I also check the #s with a timing tape on the balancer and usuaully mark with white paint TDC,then 10 degress for a starting point and 30 degrees on in 2 degree increments,very easy to see with the timing light.... I also take a little white paint and out line the timing pointer where it is mounted in case I ever take it off I can put it back in the exact location....

Sounds to me like your balancer may be "off" or not correct for the motor or your pointer is way off....

I like to check these things before putting the heads on just in case there is a problem it is easier to solve then than with the heads on.....

David

[hound dog]

SCOBRAC,
When the front cylinder on the passenger side is at TDC the timing mark on the balancer should be at "0". This has nothing to do with the distributor. I might could allow for some deviation by moving the plug wires around one notch but I still wouldn't be sure exactly where everything is. I may, in fact do this later and see what it looks like.
David,
You are exactly correct. Brain farted and then I installed the heads. I know better but did it anyway.
h dog

[boxhead]

My money is on the outer hub on the balancer has slipped around under the rubber dampener.
If you have confirmed where TDC is and it doesnt align with the pointer (pointer installed in correct position and not bent) then it will most likely be dampener.
I am not 100% sure with the ford engine but on most engines the keyway on the crank should be either right on top or bottom when at TDC.
Moveing the distributor will not change the static relationship between the crank/pulley and the pistons.

[Cobra20646]

H-Dog,

From your posts, you putting everything back on the engine that came off it, I would say that you probably have a balancer that has failed.

If by chance you have installed a balancer with the timing marks aligned for reading from the drivers (left) side of the car, you can read this balancer from the passenger side (where the pointer is located) by using clyinder #2 for your timing light trigger. You can check (prove) this by doing the TDC check on cylinder #2 and observing the timing marks on the balancer.

Also, if the pointer is on the drivers side and the balancer is marked to read on the passenger side, you can take the trigger from cylinder #5 to correctly read the timing marks.

- Jim -