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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2004, 04:36 PM
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Steel to steel = no on threads.
Aluminum to steel = yes on threads
Either way = yes on bevel champher of nut wingy ding (3/8" bead smear)
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2004, 06:46 PM
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Nice reply Johan.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2004, 07:33 PM
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Then torque it to 400 ft.lbs which is 4 "non-sissy"blows past loose.
Loose is defined as " mark on nut moves 1/16" per blow"
Tight is where a mark on the nut moves a 1/16" with the 4 blows.
Get a BIG torque wrench and one of the above tools if you want to be any more precise.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 05-17-2004, 11:48 AM
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 05-17-2004, 02:25 PM
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Tas what I'm Talkin' bout !
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-17-2004, 09:00 PM
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2004, 11:32 PM
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Johan has got it right. Also, just as in setting up a ring and pinion, check to make sure your mating surfaces on the wheel and knock off match. If you find that the nut or knock off surface is narrow compared to the seat on the wheel, even when tightend, your wheel may very well come loose. With all Racing cars it is common parctice to check the seating of the center nut or knock off's on new wheels prior to use. In many cases it is necessary to machine the nuts or knock off's and or the wheels to insure proper seating. Even on the most expensive wheels.

The gualling many of you may be experiencing could be caused because only a small amout of the mating surface's are doing the work!

Don't take for granted that just because it's new and is supposed to be right, that it is. Manufactures use CNC and very rarely do much quality control anymore. They assume that since it's CNC everything will come out as planned, even aluminum parts after a run of a hundred or so. They are very much mistaken.

Safety wire will never keep a wheel from loosening or coming off. Nor will safety pins or the like. The only way is if the wheel and spinner are properly seated.

The tightening device one off you made is simuliar to what we used back 70's, in the CAN-AM day's. The wheels were so deep (22in. wide) that you couldn't get a hammer inside to tighten them. So we made our own tools that would reach inside the wheels to the center nuts, and smack the ears on the tool with a hammer.
Good Job, you could make some money selling those I bet.
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Last edited by Bruce Robles; 05-20-2004 at 11:43 PM..
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2004, 04:50 AM
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Bruce, I have a couple of those tools "Can AM 4 way" with the big nut and the ears. Boy oh boy can a wheel nut be screwed up with one of those.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2004, 08:09 AM
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My 2:
Alloy nut with alloy rims is OK, but a small risk of ALOxide surface bonding. Bronze or SS is nicer over many years of ownership, but not necessary.

Use of anti seize on threads is OK, but also not necessary. Use very very sparingly, as locking torque keeps it on.

Use safety wire attached in direction of tightness, but you can leave it a tiny bit slack if you like as an indicator to show nut movement if the nut has loosened and tightened the wire. Better to install snug and pluck it for pitch when inspecting. You can hear that it is very high pitch if very tight and be forewarned.

Normally, wire is always attached to keep the nut retained and certainly not in the opposite direction to common sense. But, since the wing nut can move in the off direction perhaps only less than 180 degrees before it is tensioning the wire again (and assuming the wire hasn't broken meanwhile) it will soon be holding the nut on again, having allowed only much less than one complete turn. The wire certainly will keep the nut from turning in anything but a severe accident or direct blow to the wire. (But, during your walk-around pre-flight, will you recognize the reversed wire direction?)

Installing unknown and untested wheels (new or old) on a hub/spindle for the first time should include using blue dye on both mating surfaces, removing the drive pins (if applicable) and slowly turning the wheel against the surface some (with the nut installed but not too tight to prevent movement) to scratch the dye. After removal, examine the dye marks and be assured that there is a full face contact between the surfaces. The importance of this bearing surface is to prevent the wheels from drifting back and forth against the pins (or bolts) excessively with each power application and brake reversal.

The full inner surface of the wheel should show contact and no interference. The hub wear of the dye should match it in annular width, at least. Any less should raise lots of questions in your mind and they should be resolved before acceptance.

A removal tool is mandatory with alloy wing nuts, if you plan on keeping the car for any serious years. Otherwise, they will eventually fatigue and fail, requiring you to make or buy the tool anyway. (Although, if the new wing nuts are 6061 billet, maybe that isn't so?)

Don't deform the threads on an alloy wing nut by overtightening, or you will gall/jam the threads of the nut on the spindle for sure, sooner or later. After snugging up the nut, use two or three good smacks on different wing tines with the lead or dead blow mallet for tightening. Measure the removal torque someday and tell us all about it.

Once upon a time, i forgot to tension the two front wheels at all beyond hand tight, and in those ancient days no one used safety wire on street cars. Didn't want to look like a posuer, y'know. The wheels were alloy sunburst type and i drove perhaps 20 miles or so, down some country lanes at a pretty good cruise/clip.

The right front departed as i slowed for a left turn. i saw it bounce ahead and exit the road on the right shoulder pretty fast. That sucker hit a tree gobsmack in the middle and instantly reversed direction with enthusiasm and passed just barely in front of me, airborn, right to left, as i slowed down and then stopped.

Unfortunately, some dude with his fully loaded family car (that was now passing me) looked pretty surprised as it headed for his windshield. More fortunately, it dropped and hit his RF passenger door instead, thank the Lord. It had lost it's energy and flip-flopped to a stop on the road just ahead of where i had pulled over.

He stopped and i anticipated well-deserved but great grief. He was very very cordial, however. i offered a bit of cash on the spot for the mangled door repair and he happily took it rather quickly and explained that he was a truck driver and ANY accident would be negative for his insurability, even not his fault. He wanted to book out of there bigtime, before the gestapo got wind. We said adieu and i was out $50 (we are talking 1967 here, folks).

I recovered the otherwise undamaged wheel and remounted it, with a few enthusiastic smacks of the brass hammer from the kit. The 427's chassis never touched the road, because the disk diameter kept it and everything else clear.

As i drove away, a copper with his lights flashing zapped by going the other way, back to the site. i gassed it and hung a quick left and took a round-robin tour back home. (Rule of thumb, always turn left, since most everyone turns right to escape, including anyone following, but out of sight. Ever notice how the stores are set up to flow people to the right and the most expensive jewelry and parfumes are to the right?)

i mean, anyway, how many dark green Cobras were on the back roads of NH those days? i had vaporized...

Oh, yeah, i started using safety wire and drilled holes in everything i have ever owned since (including side pipe hangers and associated bolts, but that's another story).
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2004, 08:54 AM
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Usually when front wheels start to come off cars I am driving I can feel it well before the wheel actually parts company.

I have never had a rear wheel come loose yet so I can't comment on that.

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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2004, 04:46 AM
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Well, i must be particularly numb then.

It only happened to me this once and i didn't sense it at all. Perhaps the pin drives reduce the feedback?

You have probably driven a lot of pin drive wheeled cars and then have much more experience then i in this matter.

When you say you "usually" are able to "feel it well before the wheel actually parts company" you clearly mean it has happened more than once and sometimes or occasionally you do not "feel it well before the wheel actually parts company."

i wish i had your experience with this and had such a well-developed sensitivity, then i wouldn't need to bother with the safety wire...
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2004, 07:12 AM
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Please don't take offense - you are obviously a man of impressive knowledge and wisdom and I am sure the story you told is true in every detail - but I have had some experience with wheels coming off in my younger, less careful, days and can state for a fact that one gets plenty of warning before the wheel actually parts company. I probably should not have used the word "usually"...just a slight stab at humour.

Unless you are numb, of course.

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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2004, 11:21 AM
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Johan
Those tools were a nessessity, and your right they can screw up a center lug. But so can air guns such as the ones used in the IRL and CART.

We built our own, and made the ears not so long that you'd get a ton of torgue with every blow of the hammer. We also put a center pin in the socket that fit a little loose from snug inside the hub to keep the tool lined up straight with the hub. This helped keep damage to the nuts to a minimum.

I don't remember ever having a problem getting a wheel off, or having one come off, for that matter in the years I was involved with the CAN-Am and F-5000. We would replace the nuts with new one's throughout the season so that helps to.

I still have the (knockers) as we called them, and one for the fronts on a Mclaren M8F came in handy getting a tempermental Left Rear off a LOLA INDY Lights car after a qualifying session at Phoenix in 1995.

Never throw away a tool, ya just never know.
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Last edited by Bruce Robles; 05-22-2004 at 11:32 AM..
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