Metal Fragments found in Oil

StrokerCobra · #1 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 08:12 AM

Bit alarmed after just doing the 1st oil change on my new Cleveland stroker combo @ 378 cubes..

Just dropped the oil out after its first 400k’s and found quite an amount of metal fragments in the oil filter after I cut it open. Some as big as 1/2 match head in size and some dust sized fragments. All of it silver - bearings or cam I wonder??

Probably enough to cover a 20c piece - about the size of a quarter in US terms. And that’s just the bits I found...!

Any of you guys got any idea what constitutes 'normal' for a new motor's 1st oil change? Wasn’t expecting to see anything but maybe it’s one of those things that's not an issue.

Been 10 years since I installed a new motor so don't remember this happening last time. Off to see the engine builder tomorrow..

Ron61 · #2 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 10:14 AM

Stoker,

I would be more than a bit alarmed if I found those metal fragments in a new engine. Mine was ran on the dyno for a couple of hours and then all oil was drained and it was checked. Then after I had driven it the first 350 miles I drained the oil and checked. After that I change oil about every 1,000 miles and I have never found a bit of metal in mine.

Ron

Back in Black · #3 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 10:40 AM

All it had was a fine ferrous dust, maybe one teaspoon max. I had coolant seeping into my motor because of an incompetent Edelbrock Torker 2 install by my manufacturer, Vern Redel of West Coast cobras. My main bearings are shot, and the rod bearings have minor wear and look a bit glazed, although visually the crank and cam looks good, as well as the rest of the motor. Time for a professional hot tank and overhaul, including new rings. Sorry to give you this news, but you likely have quite a bit of damage in there and I would not run it another second. It will cost ya a lot more if a rod goes thru the block ! It looks like about $2 K at this point, including a professional dyno job, but it could have been a LOT more! Pulling the motor in a week or two....

Back in Black · #4 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 10:45 AM

To clarify , it's likely main crank bearings and or rod bearings. The babbet style bearings are so soft that you can scratch the surface with your FINGERNAIL.
ANY crud in the oil will damage the bearings !

TonyMadrid · #5 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 11:55 AM

I just went through an engine. The main and rod bearings washed out and the crank journals were scored. Unfortunately I didn't cut open the oil filter after the first oil change; if I had I probably would have seen the same thing your seeing.

I started to see a decrease in my oil pressure and then I started burning oil like crazy.

Have you noticed a decrease in oil pressure? If the bearing washed out the oil pressure would surely decrease.

Before you pull the engine, drop the pan and remove one or two of the main and rod bearing caps and inspect the bearings and journals. If they didn't wash out they should still have a dull even babbit coating. If they are shiny then they for sure washed out and need to be replaced.

If the journals didn't get scored you might be able to reuse the crank without having it reground. My crank was scored and I had to have it reground .020 under.

From what you say, it sounds like you may have contaminated the oil with filings and you probably will want to pull the block anyway to thoroughly clean out all the oil passages. If you had a decrease in oil pressure and if the engine ran very hot there is a chance that you wore down the cylinder walls. So, you'll probably want to have the bores measured to be sure that you didn't wear them out of clearance.

My bores, on a supposed .030 over rebore, were on average .036" at the centers of the bores. I could have had the block rebored to .040 or .060 over but I would have had to get new pistons and mine were already balanced. I got another block that hadn't been overbored and had it bored .030 over, and I rebuilt the block myself.

I am currently going back & forth with the builder who built my first block and hopefully we can reach an amicable agreement as far as compensation for the bad block/workmanship he provided.

Good luck and I hope your problem is not as bad as mine was.

Tony

Cracker · #6 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 01:00 PM

Sorry to hear of your problem/signs.

To further compare, I have about 1K on a total rebuild and do not have any/none/nada in my my oil - not even dust on the magnetic drain plug. I too believe you have some serious issues but I have eaten rod bearings before and it's just goes with this hobby. Best wishes!

Back in Black · #7 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 01:37 PM

As an indicator! Mine was 80 psi cold, 50 hot... no change from when new. But then the damage is almost entirely the bearings, and not any visible wear on the crank, etc... if your oil pressure is still high, then count your blessings and tear that motor down asap. You are gonna have to pull the motor and have the block disassembled, hot tanked and likely rebuilt. Yeah, I am sure you don't want to hear that any more than I did

StrokerCobra · #8 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 08:22 PM

Thanks guys for the competent advice. Yes the oil pressure hasn't been quite what I am used to - the variance between hot and cold running pressures is greater than they should have been. But not sure if this is the rather crap grade running in oil doing this.

Later last night after clearing my head I had another look at the filter, and whole situation. It's sure got crud in it, but probably not as much as I initially thought.

Certainly doesn't look like an entire rod or journal bearing. Having a good daylight analysis I see that some of the fragments actually came from the filter casing from the cut I put in it! So that was a bit silly..

Feel much better about it all today, but will show the engine builder see what he says. He's a very competent guy and this is the 3rd motor he's done for me over the years. The other two got driven hard most of their lives and they never used a drop of oil. So I trust him.

Fingers crossed it's not as much a problem as some of you guys had.

By the way, for your information, and despite the above issue, I'm pretty impressed with the 351 offset ground Cleveland stroker way of doing it. Stroke is now 3.7 inches (=377.5 cubes with 0.030 bore), using Chev rods, custom pistons (10.8:1), ported iron 2V heads (4V exhaust) - alot of work on the inlets to open up but done cleverly to keep the port velocity up, Weiand manifold, Holley 750DP, Ford Motorsport SVO M-6250-A342 cam (.580"/.606", 248deg/258 deg @ .050").

Though the motor is only very new it's almost got a big block feel to it, loads of torque but still pulls hard at higher revs. Might yet crack that 11s quarter I'm after..

All the best, and a great forum.

750hp · #9 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 08:50 PM

Who built your motor? Which state are you in? There are some clever clevo engine builders out and about. Click on "Local Clubs" above these messages, and put a post on the Australian Forum. It's always good to see new Aussies on ClubCobra!

When my engine builder used a cast distributor gear with my solid roller cam engine (

) , the oil itself looked fine when I drained it, but here's what the sump looked like.....

Back in Black · #10 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 08:58 PM

You MUST, repeat, MUST at MINIMUM, pull the pan, and remove several rod bearings and main bearings. What you have in terms of metal debris is more than I had, and my motor is headed for a COMPLETE teardown and overhaul. ANY crud in the oil and I virtually guarantee you have major bearing damage. get in there and LOOK

I know you don't want to hear this, but hopefully your engine builder will stand behind his work. My manufacturer ( West Coast cobras ) has shafted me and I would eat my fedora if he would pay for his major mistake(s)...

Back in Black · #11 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 09:16 PM

Keep in mind that there was only fine dust, no more volume than you saw in the filter, and WAY finer in dimension...!

Back in Black · #12 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 09:18 PM

You can see the serious damage. It is a miracle that other factors caused me to pay attention to the motor, or it would have been "adios" !

Back in Black · #13 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 09:26 PM

When you change oil... position yourself so that you can see the drain plug CLEARLY, with a strong light...and loosen the plug enough to see what might seep out, without removing it yet. I did this over at Randy's transmissions in Tumwater Washington, on the rack (they are the best tranny shop anywhere IMO, and have allowed me to make mods in their shop. Great guys and highly recommended)

Well, anyway, WATER seeped out the threads first. Just a 1/4 cup. It was enough !!! Any water and you had BETTER take it seriously, do NOT start the motor, but instead pull the pan and check the main and rod bearings...You see the above pics!!! I will now do this for every oil change for every vehicle I own. You live and hopefully learn.

TonyMadrid · #14 (**permalink**) 11-07-2003, 04:59 AM

When I pulled the main and rod caps and bearings I could plainly see that the bearings were washed out. Instead of the dull grey finish you could see the copper showing through the babbit.

Here are a few pics.

You MUST drop the pan and pull some caps to visually inspect the bearings and journals.

Good luck,

Tony

StrokerCobra · #15 (**permalink**) 11-07-2003, 06:01 AM

Thanks Back in Black and Tony, I'll keep these pics for a future reference.

Started her up today with fresh 40W/70 oil to listen for any untoward noise and took her for a slow drive. Oil pressure even with that stuff did drop 12-15psi variance on cold to a hot motor. More than it probably should so I am suspecting of the main's.

Also a few guys I chatted to today mentioned how a more thorough engine builder would run that sort of cam in with lighter springs initially, and even go to the trouble of hand finishing the lifters. Blueprinting stuff that does make a difference... and the way I would prefer it. My guy ain't that clued in it would seem, he's good but probably a bit on the cowboy side of professional, but don't want to run him down - just yet.

Off to Thailand for a well deserved vacation next week and will pull the sump off when I get back to have a look at the main bearing, if they look anything other than brand new I will pull the motor out and take it to someone else for a refresh.

Are there any West Oz's out there who can recommend a thorough and professional engine builder? Lots of legends on the East Coast, but too far to travel.

Regards

Brad

TCR_BRIAN · #16 (**permalink**) 11-24-2003, 12:57 PM

Pull your distributor and check the drive gear too.....Have had Clevelands eat the gear with HV Pump etc with aftermarket cams....

Brian

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