are sb 427's really 427 c.i.'s

[lovehamr]

Wize, did you read Keith's post? If you're gonna talk numbers you may want to start there.

Steve

[Trueoo7]

(I also had the fastest cobra at the Ohio Club Cobra gathering with top speed at 108mph in about an 1/8 mile. This was with a 427 small block FORD in a Superformance car with standard street radial tires.)


Keith
Was this a black car and was this the 2006 show because if it was I think I filmed it. I remember you shot past the end of the track.

[Streetwize]

Please read my post again...and with full respect to Keith....what I'm sayingis AT 427" , not at 482, or 514, or 557, (obviously torque and usually power goes up with displacement....even with less efficient heads) ...but for 427 CUBIC INCHES (the subject of this thread) in a Cobra, a small block is a more efficient package and an overall better power producer than a 427"
(4.233 x 3.78") FE...this is mainly due to the HUGE Variety of aftermarket heads out there for them.

[ken swart]

Keith built me a nice 427 sbf with 617 hp and it has a nice sound and way too much power and I drive in my socks and my feet don't burn and there is A LOT of room in that engine bay.Small block just makes sense. By the way, I always describe it as a 427 inch small block.

[601HP]

I enjoyed this thread a lot!! Both sides of the discussion!!

If my Ford side-oiler wears out down the road, KC8 will get my business.

David

[JGC]

I think Dangerous Doug made the best point with the 'Real' & 'Original' comments.

I would disagree that a SB wins hands down based on the technology argument. The reasoning is the same as when someone asks if a Z06 would beat a Cobra (here comes another heated debate).

Based on what playing field does the SB beat the FE or 385 Series. I can apply the same technology available for SB's to any BB. The information and parts may not be as readily available, but the technology is.

Remember the bottom end is an air pump. Bore & stroke dictated by the physical dimension of the block. Yes, the heads are a constraint because they have to fit the block and flow. Too much flow can hurt performance though.

Induction is endless. You may not have the capability to cut molds and cast new heads, but intakes are relatively easy to fabricate. Hmm, what if it put a variable path long ram intake on an FE with dual injectors and ran it with a MOTEC. I think that tech would out pace the NASCAR inspired SB.

I guess ultimately everyone should have what they want in their car. We certainly spend enough on them. For the purist, a SB in a 289 is perfect and I prefer an FE in a 427 car.

Sound is very important! The SB v. BB isn't what effects the sound. Firing order, displacement, exhaust tube size & length, and cam make the sound. A Viper engine is certainly a big block but sounds like a Triumph mating with a Volkswagen. (I think this was Lamborghini's engineer's joke on Dodge. The engine could have sounded awesome if they didn't fire two cylinders at once.)

Which is faster SB v. BB? Which ones do you want to compare? I'm sure Keith Craft could build one of each with basically the same torque curve and HP and there would be no way to tell. Everyone wants to compare apples to oranges. They say the FE is too heavy to handle and run with a SB. Well, Keith built my Pond 482 and it weighs 480 pounds with starter, pump, alternator, carb, flywheel & clutch. Oh, and I am using a 68 pound transmission.

I enjoy a debate because it makes us all seek out information and we all learn from it. But if we want to really get to the point about which engine is better, then let's discuss how much better any Ford is than a Chevy.

[PLDRIVE]

I went with a small block for weight, but had it stoked to 461CI. Makes over over 600 hp and 600TQ. Bottom line, more Cubic Inches = more TQ.

[Streetwize]

I've built just about every domestic V8 out there over the past 30 yrs, each one has it's own signature Tone...almost like a Guitar...but in general the Cam overlap and the compression (particularly with a roller that "chirps" make it very difficult to tell a Big Block from a small block, but at 427" an FE won't rev as quickly as a 427 small block and will have a deeper slightly more pulsating tone with a similar cam and compression. And the newer aluminum FE heads have smaller fast burn chambers, and they make more power and they sound closer to the modern headsed smallblocks.

[Barry_R]

I'll put one of my "good" FE engine up against a comparable displacement small block any day. Actually I have - at the Engine Masters. And my FE stuff comes out looking pretty darn competitive against any design out there. Anything that can be done to a small block for enhanced performance or efficiency can be equally applied to an FE. The FE has a BETTER valve angle than a small block by a bunch. The BT high riser heads address the low floor position nicely. I can get at least equal compression with a flat piston since my chambers are very small by big block measurements - I've been as small as 66cc.

At a rules mandated 434 inches in 2006 we were right in the upper/middle of the pack - the canted valve CHI combo was obviously in the sweet spot - something like 7 of the top ten. But if I recall correctly, there were NONE of the traditional wedge headed small block Ford engines ahead of me. So much for superiority.

In both 2007 and 2008 we were alowed to build to any OE displacement (+ a few cubes for boring), and scores were factored by cubic inches. Again we fared pretty well with the old FE both years. Take out the incredibly talented, well financed & researched Kaase and Bischoff entries and we are doing just fine for bunch of Detroit street rats. We have always been in the top few on horsepower - old racers tend to go big!

If you're gonna use the EMC as a reference - and it ain't a bad one with impartial scoring, many OE compatable components, and pump gas as requirements - then you either build a Cleveland headed small block - or something else. The popular wedge headed small block ain't in the hunt. That ought to tick a few guys off (I actually like small blocks, but since he's bashing my specialty I'll take a chunk out).

The difference between a 427 Windsor and a 427 FE is that the small block car keeps his hood shut at shows - badge envy!

Obviously I have a bias.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

The difference between a 427 Windsor and a 427 FE is that the small block car keeps his hood shut at shows - badge envy!

I am to busy driving my car to worry about car shows.

[patrickt]

... an electrical engineer friend of mine said to me the other day "You know Pat, a small block is like a civil engineer." Of course, I had no idea what he meant and asked him to explain. His explanation was that "real engineers," be they electrical, chemical, mechanical, or nuclear, view civil engineers as being a joke -- wannabe engineers, if you will. After he explained it to me, it made perfect sense in comparing smalll blocks to FEs. What an apt expression....

[blykins]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... an electrical engineer friend of mine said to me the other day "You know Pat, a small block is like a civil engineer." Of course, I had no idea what he meant and asked him to explain. His explanation was that "real engineers," be they electrical, chemical, mechanical, or nuclear, view civil engineers as being a joke -- wannabe engineers, if you will. After he explained it to me, it made perfect sense in comparing smalll blocks to FEs. What an apt expression....

I'm sure glad I'm a Mechanical Engineer....I wouldn't want to be a joke in Patrick's eyes.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

I'm sure glad I'm a Mechanical Engineer....I wouldn't want to be a joke in Patrick's eyes.

Brent, I have absolutely no doubt that you were howling with laughter when reading that post (and agreeing with it, as well).

[McD00]

I'm back guys, they said I had a "brakedown". What do those damn doctors know anyway. It all started when I had a dream that I got another F.inally E.xtinct big block engine. This time I put fuel injection on it and could not git it to run right. Those big rods went round and round until there was a F.atal E.xtraction so I dropped the b!tch in the lake for a bouy. What a turd! Thanks for dragging me in this pile of crap.

McVette

dont get me started

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I'll put one of my "good" FE engine up against a comparable displacement small block any day. Actually I have - at the Engine Masters. And my FE stuff comes out looking pretty darn competitive against any design out there. Anything that can be done to a small block for enhanced performance or efficiency can be equally applied to an FE. The FE has a BETTER valve angle than a small block by a bunch. The BT high riser heads address the low floor position nicely. I can get at least equal compression with a flat piston since my chambers are very small by big block measurements - I've been as small as 66cc.

At a rules mandated 434 inches in 2006 we were right in the upper/middle of the pack - the canted valve CHI combo was obviously in the sweet spot - something like 7 of the top ten. But if I recall correctly, there were NONE of the traditional wedge headed small block Ford engines ahead of me. So much for superiority.

In both 2007 and 2008 we were alowed to build to any OE displacement (+ a few cubes for boring), and scores were factored by cubic inches. Again we fared pretty well with the old FE both years. Take out the incredibly talented, well financed & researched Kaase and Bischoff entries and we are doing just fine for bunch of Detroit street rats. We have always been in the top few on horsepower - old racers tend to go big!

If you're gonna use the EMC as a reference - and it ain't a bad one with impartial scoring, many OE compatable components, and pump gas as requirements - then you either build a Cleveland headed small block - or something else. The popular wedge headed small block ain't in the hunt. That ought to tick a few guys off (I actually like small blocks, but since he's bashing my specialty I'll take a chunk out).

The difference between a 427 Windsor and a 427 FE is that the small block car keeps his hood shut at shows - badge envy!

Obviously I have a bias.

[Barry_R]

Originally Posted by McD00

I'm back guys, they said I had a "brakedown". What do those damn doctors know anyway. It all started when I had a dream that I got another F.inally E.xtinct big block engine. This time I put fuel injection on it and could not git it to run right. Those big rods went round and round until there was a F.atal E.xtraction so I dropped the b!tch in the lake for a bouy. What a turd! Thanks for dragging me in this pile of crap.

McVette

dont get me started

My 2006 combo has 2" rods. They spin just fine, and are smaller than a SBF production rod bearing. Remember - anything can be done to any engine...

If this McPoo guy had a clue he'd trade it for a roll of nickels so he could buy himself a date for Friday night.....

Mark,
You are EVERYWHERE!

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

My 2006 combo has 2" rods. They spin just fine, and are smaller than a SBF production rod bearing. Remember - anything can be done to any engine...

If this McPoo guy had a clue he'd trade it for a roll of nickels so he could buy himself a date for Friday night.....

Mark,
You are EVERYWHERE!

Barry,

You have to learn to ignore McShortBusRider.

And you're right....Mr O'Neal is on every forum that I can think of....LOL

[McD00]

2" rods? Chevy size....that will hold together cuz we no chevies are better
Lets face it the only thing FE on these knew engines is the name...


Oh I never had to pay for some but I herd you could build a F.inally E.xtinct BB for what some of those wimmen cost

McVette

Originally Posted by Barry_R

My 2006 combo has 2" rods. They spin just fine, and are smaller than a SBF production rod bearing. Remember - anything can be done to any engine...

If this McPoo guy had a clue he'd trade it for a roll of nickels so he could buy himself a date for Friday night.....

Mark,
You are EVERYWHERE!

[cobrarkc]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I'll put one of my "good" FE engine up against a comparable displacement small block any day. Actually I have - at the Engine Masters. And my FE stuff comes out looking pretty darn competitive against any design out there. Anything that can be done to a small block for enhanced performance or efficiency can be equally applied to an FE. The FE has a BETTER valve angle than a small block by a bunch. The BT high riser heads address the low floor position nicely. I can get at least equal compression with a flat piston since my chambers are very small by big block measurements - I've been as small as 66cc.

At a rules mandated 434 inches in 2006 we were right in the upper/middle of the pack - the canted valve CHI combo was obviously in the sweet spot - something like 7 of the top ten. But if I recall correctly, there were NONE of the traditional wedge headed small block Ford engines ahead of me. So much for superiority.

In both 2007 and 2008 we were alowed to build to any OE displacement (+ a few cubes for boring), and scores were factored by cubic inches. Again we fared pretty well with the old FE both years. Take out the incredibly talented, well financed & researched Kaase and Bischoff entries and we are doing just fine for bunch of Detroit street rats. We have always been in the top few on horsepower - old racers tend to go big!

If you're gonna use the EMC as a reference - and it ain't a bad one with impartial scoring, many OE compatable components, and pump gas as requirements - then you either build a Cleveland headed small block - or something else. The popular wedge headed small block ain't in the hunt. That ought to tick a few guys off (I actually like small blocks, but since he's bashing my specialty I'll take a chunk out).

The difference between a 427 Windsor and a 427 FE is that the small block car keeps his hood shut at shows - badge envy!

Obviously I have a bias.

Now this is what I'm talking about.

Thank You Barry

[601HP]

Someone keep the popcorn and several bottles of Yuengling, and ............coming. This thread hasn't found it's half-life!

[Mark O'Neal]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I'll put one of my "good" FE engine up against a comparable displacement small block any day. Actually I have - at the Engine Masters. And my FE stuff comes out looking pretty darn competitive against any design out there. Anything that can be done to a small block for enhanced performance or efficiency can be equally applied to an FE. The FE has a BETTER valve angle than a small block by a bunch. The BT high riser heads address the low floor position nicely. I can get at least equal compression with a flat piston since my chambers are very small by big block measurements - I've been as small as 66cc.

At a rules mandated 434 inches in 2006 we were right in the upper/middle of the pack - the canted valve CHI combo was obviously in the sweet spot - something like 7 of the top ten. But if I recall correctly, there were NONE of the traditional wedge headed small block Ford engines ahead of me. So much for superiority.

In both 2007 and 2008 we were alowed to build to any OE displacement (+ a few cubes for boring), and scores were factored by cubic inches. Again we fared pretty well with the old FE both years. Take out the incredibly talented, well financed & researched Kaase and Bischoff entries and we are doing just fine for bunch of Detroit street rats. We have always been in the top few on horsepower - old racers tend to go big!

If you're gonna use the EMC as a reference - and it ain't a bad one with impartial scoring, many OE compatable components, and pump gas as requirements - then you either build a Cleveland headed small block - or something else. The popular wedge headed small block ain't in the hunt. That ought to tick a few guys off (I actually like small blocks, but since he's bashing my specialty I'll take a chunk out).

The difference between a 427 Windsor and a 427 FE is that the small block car keeps his hood shut at shows - badge envy!

Obviously I have a bias.

Barry....you crank me up......