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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2011, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Blas View Post
My understanding of the process is a follows:
The PCV valve is the path to remove condensation (which is a product of combustion) from an engine as it gets warm, A cooling system temp of 185F to 195F (85C - 91c) is requires to vaporize moisture from the oil. Accumulated fuel in the oil is vaporized at a lower temperature. Under normal conditions, oil temperature is usually 15-25 degress hotter then the coolant temperature. Oil oxidizes at temperatures above 250F causing varnish deposits. The ideal temp for oil is 195F (91C) (Note: Water boils at 212F or 100C)
Hmmmm, where to begin.

- The PCV valve is there to reduce smog. By products of combustion pass the rings (blow-by) and enter the crank case. The PCV system pulls them out of the crank case and re-introduces them to the combustion chamber to be re-burned. That reduces emissions, and also reduces power.

- Condensation is not a by product of combustion. It is caused by a rapid change in temperature, which takes the water out of solution and it precipitates out - condensing into the oil or other surfaces.

- Water vaporizes at anything above ambient temp and humidity. The higher it is, the faster it happens. If it had to be >185*, your kitchen floor would never be dry.

- Oil temp is usually higher than water temp. How much depends on a lot of facters. Oil is mostly heated by rpm's. If you're racing hard on the track, oil temps will often be 50-60* higher than coolant. If you're loping down the highway on a cold morning, oil temp is often below coolant temp.

- Oil oxidizes and forms varnish at any temp than it's designed operating temp. Cheap Circle K oil may do that at 250*. But a true synthetic will easily manage temps much higher than that. And don't forget that time is a huge facter. 300* for 5 minute is much easier on oil than 250* for 5 hours.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2011, 08:51 PM
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isn't true synthetic sorta like tight slacks????

actually the pcv caused a worsening of smog---it converted oil drips on the road to burning the oil and causing worse tail pipe emissions
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jhv48 View Post
Brown muck in the oil is generally caused by a faulty gasket or cracked block.
(water leaking into the oil)
Really, enlighten me further vis a vi the water leak in my Buell XB12X please. Maybe in Carlsbad this doesn't happen, but here on the southeast coast this can happen anytime the temp drops and people don't operate their internal combustion engines to full operating temp on a regular basis. That means gas or diesel; water, oil or air cooled. The “brown muck” would be properly termed an emulsion, and while I would agree with others who’ve said that “evaporation” can occur at almost any time, when the water is suspended in an emulsion it is essentially trapped by enveloping oil thus slowing or nullifying any ambient temp evaporation. If, on the other hand, the engine and its fluids are brought to full operating temp (my Canton thermostat doesn’t open until 212 degrees F) then that same water becomes gaseous not just vaporous. At this point, what water is trapped in the emulsion will be released during the resultant expansion allowing it to be vented. The salient point is that if the oil is never brought up to sufficient temp for this to occur then the emulsions will continue to collect and hold water. If this emulsion reaches the sump and is pumped through the oil system then this will result in damage to the engine and I don’t see how anyone could argue that point as it is not an unknown occurrence. And just so that we are clear on this; water (gaseous) IS a major byproduct of the combustion process. For those who didn’t take chemistry in high school (or don’t remember it) gasoline would be represented by C8H18. Its combustion, in the easiest sense of the word is to carbon dioxide and water and could be expressed thusly: 2C8H18 + 25O2 ~> 16CO2 + 18H2O
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by lovehamr View Post
And just so that we are clear on this; water (gaseous) IS a major byproduct of the combustion process. For those who didn’t take chemistry in high school (or don’t remember it) gasoline would be represented by C8H18. Its combustion, in the easiest sense of the word is to carbon dioxide and water and could be expressed thusly: 2C8H18 + 25O2 ~> 16CO2 + 18H2O
Absolutely correct, combustion creates water vapor. In a perfectly performing combustion engine, the hydrocarbons react with Oxygen and turn to water (vapor) and CO2. The Nitrogen would simply pass straight on through into the exhaust. This is why emissions controls have been able to reduced the CO2 output, thus resulting in a cleaner burning engine.

Last edited by elmariachi; 11-09-2011 at 09:29 AM..
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by lovehamr View Post
Really, enlighten me further vis a vi the water leak in my Buell XB12X please. Maybe in Carlsbad this doesn't happen, but here on the southeast coast this can happen anytime the temp drops and people don't operate their internal combustion engines to full operating temp on a regular basis. That means gas or diesel; water, oil or air cooled. The “brown muck” would be properly termed an emulsion, and while I would agree with others who’ve said that “evaporation” can occur at almost any time, when the water is suspended in an emulsion it is essentially trapped by enveloping oil thus slowing or nullifying any ambient temp evaporation. If, on the other hand, the engine and its fluids are brought to full operating temp (my Canton thermostat doesn’t open until 212 degrees F) then that same water becomes gaseous not just vaporous. At this point, what water is trapped in the emulsion will be released during the resultant expansion allowing it to be vented. The salient point is that if the oil is never brought up to sufficient temp for this to occur then the emulsions will continue to collect and hold water. If this emulsion reaches the sump and is pumped through the oil system then this will result in damage to the engine and I don’t see how anyone could argue that point as it is not an unknown occurrence. And just so that we are clear on this; water (gaseous) IS a major byproduct of the combustion process. For those who didn’t take chemistry in high school (or don’t remember it) gasoline would be represented by C8H18. Its combustion, in the easiest sense of the word is to carbon dioxide and water and could be expressed thusly: 2C8H18 + 25O2 ~> 16CO2 + 18H2O
And if anyone needs further proof of this, come look at my wife's car....it gets driven about 1.5 miles in the morning, then parked all day and 1.5 miles home and parked all night...in the winter, by the time she gets to work, the heater is just starting to blow warm air..take off the oil fill cap and you'll see just what Steve is talking about..“brown muck”. I try to use it for my work (about 250 miles per day of highway driving) at least once a month to help minimize this....
and if that's not enough, come by my shop and I'll crank up my race car for you and you can see for yourself. Each valve cover has a 12AN fitting with a 3/4 inch inside diameter clear hose going to a vented catch can in the passenger front corner of the radiator support, so the clear lines are about 3 feet long each.When I crank it up when the outsdie air temp is say,60 or lower, the condesate in those clear hoses is amazing, I'd bet a tablespoon in each during warmup, that's why I have them going down hill so the condensate will flow into the catch can and not back into the engine. but the point is, the block and all internal components are cold and condensate will form on the inside of the crankcase/block and drip down into the oil pan...long drives at highway speeds gives this time to vaporize or evaporate off......on the race car, a 20 to 30 minute race with my oil temp at anywhere from 220 to 250 degrees will take car of the condensate, that and frequent oil changes......
David
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:04 PM
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I've been wondering about condensate contamination recently on my (I think) box-stock 5.0 HO engine in my Cobra. I notice that on cool days the coolant temperature stays around 160* unless I turn off the puller fan on the radiator (it is a large Griffin radiator....at least it never overheats). If that is so, then the oil temperature must be even lower, as I seldom drive it anywhere near the upper RPM limits in town.

I'm just curious...what temp thermostats does everyone use? I have no idea what mine is, but think I'll swap it out for a 195* unit for the winter, then back to a 180* unit for the summer.

I guess I need an oil temp gauge more than I need the non-functional amp gauge (I have no oil cooler). Would it be best to connect the oil temperature gauge at the rear of the block, right in front of the firewall?

TIA for whatever advice y'all might have. I've seen engines all sludged up inside from failure to run a thermostat, but never gave much thought to the fact that failure to boil off the condensate in the oil might do the same thing.

Cheers!

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by YerDugliness View Post
I've been wondering about condensate contamination recently on my (I think) box-stock 5.0 HO engine in my Cobra. I notice that on cool days the coolant temperature stays around 160* unless I turn off the puller fan on the radiator (it is a large Griffin radiator....at least it never overheats). If that is so, then the oil temperature must be even lower, as I seldom drive it anywhere near the upper RPM limits in town.

I'm just curious...what temp thermostats does everyone use? I have no idea what mine is, but think I'll swap it out for a 195* unit for the winter, then back to a 180* unit for the summer.

I guess I need an oil temp gauge more than I need the non-functional amp gauge (I have no oil cooler). Would it be best to connect the oil temperature gauge at the rear of the block, right in front of the firewall?

TIA for whatever advice y'all might have. I've seen engines all sludged up inside from failure to run a thermostat, but never gave much thought to the fact that failure to boil off the condensate in the oil might do the same thing.

Cheers!

Dugly
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the 5.0 HO engines came with 190 or 195 degree thermostats. Depending if it's still EFI or carbed,(I see your engine is carbed, so 180 degree thermostat would be correct for it) I would use that or a 180 thermostat, nothing lower. Soounds like you have a very efficeint cooling system on your car, you might try blocking off a few inches of the bottom of your radiator with the wide clear packing tape to help keep the water temp in the 180 to 190 range...
I use the same 180 degree thermostat on my street car and race car!!!!!

Water temp has little to no bearing on your oil temp.,oil temp is determined by rpms and bearing clearance mostly and oil viscosity to some degree....not sure I understand what you mean by putting your oil temp gauge at the rear of the block, it needs to be low in the oil pan where it will stay submerged in oil to get any kind of accurate reading...
Idealy,to me anyway, water temp should stay bewteen 180 and 190, and oil temp from 190 to 220....

David
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 04:16 PM
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- Water will evaporate from an emulsion at low temps - like 100*; it just takes a long time. Frequent short trips cause the sludge to develop because it gets warm for a very short period of time. Longer trips get the oil and water to higher temps, and for longer periods, that's why the sludge usually resolves. The end result is correct, but the cause- effect assumption is slightly off.

If you could run the engine for an hour at 100*, the same thing would happen. But, why would you do that? That would be a bad thing to do for a lot of reasons.

- A good spot for the oil temp sender depends on your engine set up. With an external cooler, I like to know what the temp is as it's going in to the engine. With no external components, the side of the pan is a good spot. With the proper adapter, you can put it where the factory level sensor used to be.

- A stock Mustang usually has a 195* thermostat. The higher operating temp improves emissions. The computer is programmed to look for that temp before switching to closed loop, and then it gets off the cold enrichment map. You can use a 160* or 180* thermostat if you reprogram the computer to see that as normal operating temp. Of course, if you've dumped the computer altogether and gone with a carb, you can use anything you want, and adjust the choke accordingly.

Lots of studies on cold weather operation show increased cylinder wall wear at temps <160* or so.

The thermostat only sets rough minimum temps.

- Water is a small by product of combustion. Because of the heat involved, you know the water is well vaporized. But, the condensation in every other part of the engine is not the same thing. On a good engine, the blow by will be 10% or less. If you're getting that much water simply from blow by, you have other issues to address.

- oil sludge is more of a problem in some engines than it is in others; the 2001-2004 Dodge Dakota 4.7l comes to mind. It was a problem even for people who made frequent long drives - 20 to 40 mile commutes. So, obviously engine design has a something to do with it. That engine even had a recall (or maybe a TSB?) on that particular concern. IIRC, the fix was something simple like a new PVC hose routing.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2011, 08:23 AM
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Apples to oranges once again.

Engines are designed to be operated within a certain temperature range. If you fail to meet that requirement, condensation will occur and will not be boiled off. Duh! That's why manufacturers recommend more frequent oil changes for low mileage vehicles.

But, i am talking about normally operated vehicles. Ones that reach normal operating temps. If you notice brown muck in the oil of one of these vehicles, then you probably have a serious water leak.
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Old 11-10-2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD View Post
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the 5.0 HO engines came with 190 or 195 degree thermostats. Depending if it's still EFI or carbed,(I see your engine is carbed, so 180 degree thermostat would be correct for it) I would use that or a 180 thermostat, nothing lower.

....not sure I understand what you mean by putting your oil temp gauge at the rear of the block, it needs to be low in the oil pan where it will stay submerged in oil to get any kind of accurate reading...

Idealy,to me anyway, water temp should stay bewteen 180 and 190, and oil temp from 190 to 220....

David
Thanks, David, for the advice...I'll definitely change out the thermostat while I have the valve covers off for gasket replacement!

As for my comment regarding the "oil temp gauge at the rear of the block", I guess the keyboard gremlins got me that time. I was trying to say "..sensor location for the oil temp gauge"...the rear of the block seemed to be the best idea as I thought there was a place to tap into the oiling system for a pressure gauge...I see now that those "ports" are coolant and vacuum "ports". I do have a Fox body oil pan on the Cobra right now, and there is a plugged port on the driver's side of the pan, directly to the side of the rear oil pan drain plug, that was probably for a factory "low oil" sensor, I'll try to use that location.

I am guilty of thinking that I need heavy viscosity oil in my pan...think I will switch to 15W-30 or 15W-40. Right now there is a very slight leak at the rear corner of the passenger's side valve cover, so I check the oil level every time I get in my car. It must be a very slight leak, I guess, as the oil level never seems to drop on the dipstick. My oil pressure VERY seldom drops to 40PSI, and usually at any RPM level above idle is at 60PSI (VDO gauges, no idea how accurate they are).

Cheers, and thanks, again! An oil temp gauge is definitely in my Cobra's future.

Dugly
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Old 11-10-2011, 05:38 PM
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Talking about pressure - when I'm around a temperature of ~90-95 C (standard Superformace sensor at remote filter) I have ~ 40-50 psi. At ~105 C it drops to ~20-25 psi. I'm using Joe Gibbs HR-2 (30 weight). Are these lower pressures OK or should I up the weight?

thx
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Old 11-10-2011, 05:47 PM
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Do you have the cooler hooked up or is it just a dummy with lines tucked up into fenders?
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Old 11-10-2011, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by YerDugliness View Post
I do have a Fox body oil pan on the Cobra right now, and there is a plugged port on the driver's side of the pan, directly to the side of the rear oil pan drain plug, that was probably for a factory "low oil" sensor, I'll try to use that location.

Mike Forte makes an adapter especially for this application.

I am guilty of thinking that I need heavy viscosity oil in my pan...think I will switch to 15W-30 or 15W-40. Right now there is a very slight leak at the rear corner of the passenger's side valve cover, so I check the oil level every time I get in my car. It must be a very slight leak, I guess, as the oil level never seems to drop on the dipstick. My oil pressure VERY seldom drops to 40PSI, and usually at any RPM level above idle is at 60PSI (VDO gauges, no idea how accurate they are).

Cheers, and thanks, again! An oil temp gauge is definitely in my Cobra's future.

Dugly
Good operating oil pressure should around 45psi or so. It will drop a bit at idle, but not too much. Too much oil pressure is not necessarily a good thing. The oil should be "thick" enough to maintain proper oil pressure. Whatever viscosity that might be. In the winter, you should run a fairly low winter weight. Since we rarely drive our cars in sub-zero temps, a 15W is probably fine.

I use 5W-30 true syntheitc year 'round. Maintaining proper oil pressure isn't a problem. When hot and on the track, it runs about 45-50psi. I tear the engine down every two years. The bearings look excellent after two years of abuse. I replace the bearings (just because) but I'v never had to cut the crank. Obviusly, crank and bearing wear is not an issue.

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Talking about pressure - when I'm around a temperature of ~90-95 C (standard Superformace sensor at remote filter) I have ~ 40-50 psi. At ~105 C it drops to ~20-25 psi. I'm using Joe Gibbs HR-2 (30 weight). Are these lower pressures OK or should I up the weight?

thx
20-25psi at hot idle is fine; while running down the highway it's probably a little bit low. I would investigate that a bit more closely.
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:47 PM
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Thanks for the tip on the Mike Forte oil pan adaptor, Bob! I had figured I'd have to cobble up a bunch of brass adaptors, it's good to know that someone else has taken all the guess work out of it for me.

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Good operating oil pressure should around 45psi or so. It will drop a bit at idle, but not too much. Too much oil pressure is not necessarily a good thing. The oil should be "thick" enough to maintain proper oil pressure. Whatever viscosity that might be. In the winter, you should run a fairly low winter weight. Since we rarely drive our cars in sub-zero temps, a 15W is probably fine.

I use 5W-30 true syntheitc year 'round. Maintaining proper oil pressure isn't a problem. When hot and on the track, it runs about 45-50psi. I tear the engine down every two years. The bearings look excellent after two years of abuse. I replace the bearings (just because) but I'v never had to cut the crank. Obviusly, crank and bearing wear is not an issue.
I suspect my engine has a high-pressure oil pump and that it is already at the limits of the relief spring once I get the RPM's above an idle. I would rather use a high-volume pump, but for now it has what it has, so I'll deal with that until it is time to tear it down. At this point the only place where I have any oil leaks is the valve cover, so I know the pressure is not adequate to force oil past the front/rear seals, etc. It is totally street driven, and rather tamely for the most part as I know the local police would love to nail me for anything they can....I was on my way to a car show in Beaumont, TX and was stopped by a DPS officer for having an expired registration. It took 2 minutes to show him my receipt from the new registration the day before, but it took an hour to get away from him after that, he was a "car guy" too and wanted to talk cars.

As for the synthetic oil, I've been a bit reluctant to use it since I put it into a new Mitsubishi Eclipse I bought for my daughter (after 12,000 miles with normal petroleum based oil) and the car developed a severe oil consumption problem. I know it would be better from the standpoint of heat tolerance, and probably from the standpoint of wear protection, but that little experience I had with the synthetic oils has me afraid to try again.

Once I get the valve-cover gaskets and the thermostat replaced, I'll experiment around with oil viscosities to see which meets the guidelines you posted. I don't mind "only" 45 at full pressure, but would want at least 30 at an idle when at operating temperature.

I once had a '66 Cadillac with the 429CID V-8...the pressure required to illuminate the "idiot light" for low oil pressure was 8PSI, no kidding! I mention that b/c I guess it just illustrates how little oil pressure is required to maintain a decent film on the bearings and other operating parts, but I would still like for the low RPM oil pressure to be better than "minimum".

At some point I plan on installing an Oberg oil filter "downstream" from the canister filter...right now I use Purolator's "99%" efficiency oil filter (reportedly designed for the synthetic oils), but I like the idea of the Oberg as a "fail-safe" should the bypass function on the canister filter be triggered, and particularly if I were to install an oil cooler in the scoop below the fishmouth (radiator opening).

Cheers!

Dugly
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:45 PM
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For the engine you have and the way you drive it, there's no need to use a full synthetic oil at $8-9 a qt. Stick with your favorite dino oil and change it once or twice a year. The engine will last a decade, easily.

The Purolater Pure-1 oil filter is one of the best on the market for the money. That's what I use in most everything, and have never had any problems. Adding an additional oil filter isn't necessary.

Of course, a lot of the stuff we do to our cars isn't exactly necessary. Sometimes you just have to do what makes you happy, and helps you sleep at night.
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