American vs. Cheap

[KobraKarl]

TC,

I must admit I dont know much about the airline companies,...It sounds like you must be in the industry , I dont know what a seasoned airline pilot deserves for compensation......I am sure if I am flying he better be damn good ..
................the measure of a man is not what he does when all systems are go,...but what he can do when they are all "f'd" up.

I will agree that there are some union compensations ,that for whatever reason have gotten way out of wak, but they are the exeption and of course get all the puplicity.

Snake oil,

The relevant topic is "illegals"...........I am not assuming anything ...where did you get the idea I have a problem with hispanics?????

KK

[misfit41]

I dont mean to offend yo uor any one Gordon,,and I am certain you work had for your money and do a great Job,actually my wife is a teamster,is soemthing dont change they will cost her her job.
I only speak on what I see,,my area is largely auto industry,these idiots make 25 to 30 bucks an hour,2 ocloc in the after noon several of them are in my shop,a buddy clocking them out,then always monday after abig weekend drun they call n sick,then the time and a half for weekends,then double time for holidays,they get drunk ,take off friday and monday,then make it all up with working one holiday,no wonder a freaking car cost so much,I have always been the guy trying to sel them,if you want to see the real world,sell chevys for a living,,god I am glad I dont have to do that any more,,
I am old schoolyou get a job,you do what they ask of you,you negotiate the best pay you can ,as often as you can,last but not least ,you either likeit,and act like you like it,or move on,it's called employment at will,thats the american way. Tim

[vettestr]

Here is one a litle closer to home for me and I invite you to consider all the effects of illegals (non documented ) workers. My daughter and I were hit by a drunk driver on Xmas morning at 8AM. This driver was in a company truck, been at a company party the evening before the crash, was not of legal drinking age, lived with another illegal who was his supervisor and person truck was assigned to.
This illegal driving DUI at 2X legal limits ran a red light hitting the 4th car through the green light in the drivers door post at an estimated 60+MPH and never applied the brakes before impact. He died at scene so questioning was not an option but was convicted of DUI, causing a fatal accident and running red light.
The car he struck (me and my daughter ) had severe injuries. Driver had broken neck, C2,C3,C4 and left arm, ribs and brain injuries causing left side deficits, memory issues and cognative deficits. My daughter watched as Dad was cut from car thinking he was dead and also the ejected drunk driver of truck in the street. My daughter receeived a small scarring cut and concusion and other than sore and horror of crash was OK. I Spent 8 months in a halo after surery and all the BS that goes with these injuries.
Bottom line= This AMERICAN CO. hiring illegals claimed 3 days after crash that truck was stolen and had 8 more illegals give statements that he must have stolen the truck. AMERICAN employer who payed no taxes on illegals, no benifits ETC to support the community! He was making a GOOD living and was NOT LIABLE for any costs because somebody must have stolen the truck and therefore no liability= he paid nothing!!!!!!
Without recovery of costs from accident (no liability, no insurance from company ) all bills are mine and still paying them off 2 years later.
Hiring illegals to do the jobs americans won't do or insist on a higher wage for is a victimless deal and look how much lower the company can price his services = since his overhead is lower. RIGHT ! Can you hear a large sucking sound, I can but only from my right ear mow !

[Turk]

Misfit,
Selling Chevrolets is a challenge. I don't think it is because the Unions didn't do their jobs, it is mainly because the Managers didn't design cars people would buy. Same managers also didn't see to it that union workers did their jobs.

I have a different take on unions than some. It is not like diplomatic immunity to be a union worker. I have seen many suspended and fired. I have seen many union workers who have taken pay cuts to the point their jobs no longer pay what they would in the open market had they been non-union.

My neighbor is an out of work Airline Pilot with 17 years experience. He is looking for other flying jobs with regional carriers that will start him at $25,000 a year if he would relocate or fly out of locations 2000 miles away.

Union wages,and benefits alone do not design a bad car. Creative minds at GM is soley responsible for the drab and unreliable cars of the 80s and 90s.

Honda and Toyota did a fine job, NOT because they were cheaper, they sold like hot cakes because they were BETTER.

Unions are not lilly white either. They did their damage to the US economy. At some point they are no longer to blame. Management is.

Some of the myth of what it must be like to be a union worker is a joke. I have not witnessed the kind of immunity a union worker would receive like the examples given here.

Since union memberships are way down, and most US workers are non union, my guess is on any given day there are more drunk and drugged irresponsible non union workers out there. It is more indicative of the work ethic that is currently the norm.

TURK

[CowtownCobra]

Here is part of a Christmas e-mail we got from one of our customers who (unfortunately for them) purchased some of our competitors products. I won't bore you with the details, other than to say we use a lot of stepper motors. Our competitior went and got the absolute cheapest motors they could from some chinese company. They literally fell apart. Every single one had to be replaced, I think over a thousand. Notice what was used to spell out the greetings, those are the bad ones...

[SPEEDEAMON]

Let's not forget that the discoverers and forefathers of this land starting in 1492 were illegal immigrants who invaded this land and took it from the natives and forced them into living on reservations. Now we let them operate casinos, take our money and pay little tax.

I just see no way that outsourcing is going to stop. Also, I wonder how the government can round up all illegals, arrest them and deport them. This will take a massive amount of effort and to replace the workers with legal work force. The adjustment on the labor cost increase and subsequent price increase in goods and services will make the USA non-competitive in the world. Which means less work and more unemployment. As an example, when you are down to your last few dollar and you need to buy your baby diapers, will you buy American made for $5.00 or foreign made for $2.00. With the $3.00 you save, you can feed your baby, too.

More realistically, you need a part for your Cobra. You already told your wife you'e going to spend just $200 more. She has heard this before. The American made part is $200 and the foreign part is $150. With the extra $50 you can buy another part. What to do?

[misfit41]

Turk,,
I wasnt referring to unions making selling chevys a real world job,other than the high wages,but you being in the business know as well as me,the real money in us autos is in EPA,and profit ,the auto industry is notorious for "whoring out" the public by constantly raising the prices until sales slow,then kick out rebates to get them moving..
Mt head ache with car sales in general is the public conceives us as crooks,when in reality ,the bulk of auto dealers are forced to be straighter than most business's,and work from a profit margin that would break a wal mart or winn dixie to boot,IMHO the real crooks are the banks,Insurance companies,lawyers and doctors,in that order,,of course if it werent for ins co's and lawyers,we wouldnt need ins co's and lawyers.It used to blow my mind,I would sell a 39k tahoe to a couple who beat us to death on price,not knowing the furniture store made more profit on their 1600.00 sofa then we did on the truck.
I was in the car business in the 70's and 80's as well,and your right ,japan took us to school on quality,not because we cant build a better car,but because the fat and lazy american public was short sighted enough to keep buying the junk coming from detroit,not caring about economy because gas was 45 cents a gallon,and there is enough to last forever ,,right ? and because our work force takes no pride what so ever in the product they produce,it's all about more money and less work.
I still think the same basic thing,nothing will change for the better until our country regains it's sense of pride and honor,we have created a complete generation of deadbeats with no hope in sight for change,I had hoped 9/11 would wake us up,but it is already winding down.
I live minuites from Ft Knox and have enjoyed working with Gi's my whole life,as a whole much better than average people,we can say the things we want,do what we want,and give our open opinion while living in reasonable safety only because there are bad ass soldiers who wont delay using his or her weapon,I regret the rest of the public is so weak and clueless.,,Tim
WHEW!! I feel better

[SPEEDEAMON]

I just had a new roof put on our house by a company called All-American Roofing. Well gyess what? Except for the supervisor every laborer was Mexican. Only one spoke English. But they worked really hard long hours, never complained and did a damn fine job, including a thorough clean up. Tomorrow all Hispanics are calling in sick in order to support the Caif. reversal of driver's license for illegal aliens. Heard that from one of the roofers. We'll see what happens at Walmart and the farms.

[Sizzler]

Originally posted by Bluesman


Answer:
Union worker, HS grad or not = $30.00 per hour.
Non Union, 3rd world labor= $5.00 per hour.
You own the business... where to you take your labor?

America 'cares' so much about the poor residents of other countries such as Iraq, but turns a blind eye towards it's own resident CEO's and businesses basically off-shoring slavery.

Simple solution, and the fairest, to me anyway, would be to extend the OSHA, legal protections granted US workers, wage and hour law, requirements to any use of non-US workers used to produce products for sale in the US. Just as if you're a goverment contractor/supplier and need to adhere to goverment mandates concerning type/amount/usage of labor used to supply your side of the contract, those same sort of laws should be extended to encompass the whole world if they're supplying US consumers.

I'd like to see the EPA go to town on some of those Chinese steel mills for a start. And OSHA in Hong Kong would be 'interesting'.

All anyone really wants is a level playing ground.

[John 550]

I think:
Airline companys make profits it the billions , I dont think unions were a problem .
From a safty point of view , I would rather be in an airplane that was maintained by a union shop .
When management is left to make repairs , cost is weighted at the expense of safty .

If teaching does not pay good , you will not "attract "good teachers , the good ones will do
something else . Our children are our future , we need to make them smart so they can get us
out of the mess that is being made .Who ever talked about a (10%) pay raise for teachers , I
wonder how you feel when theGoverment votes them self in a 40% raise every two years or so .

I am a union electrical worker . Here in the north east , the competition is fierce . The contractor
I work for faces competion by other union and non union contractors . The non union guy will
bid as much , and pay his people less . In order to compete against that, you must always work
hard or you will find yourself out of work.

[Steve R]

Hmm,
Walmart sales are $174,000 per employee per year. Not bad.

Hmm,
I just bought a Chinese Schwinn mountain bike for my son for $130. It has just about every bell and whistle I can think of. I'm
thinking "This is just incredible. I just scored this bike for next to nothing. Quality? hell, if the damn thing lasts just 4 years, I can
junk it and get another brand new one and be way ahead of the game. Damn It's great to be an American!" I have incredible buying power. Some poor slob in rural China would probably have to save for a year to get one. unemployment is around 5%?
I have a nice home, 3 kids, and a stay at home wife.....and I'm a friggen mechanic!!!! These are great times my friends. Don't
kid yourselves.

"We're jolly green giants walking the earth....with wallets"
Steve

[misfit41]

Mexicans do work hard,no doubt,and glad to do it,,on the other hand,20 bucks a day is big money to them,they pay no car insurance,no cable bill,no health insurance,no car license fees,no school or library tax,they live like rats,they can afford to do the low end jobs,an honest american cant pay all he has to pay,raise his family ,and send kids to school on 7 to 10 bucks an hour,,where does that leave us ?
Wal Mart sucks, that last statement was obviously made by someone who hasnt lost a great job,,YET,I would rather pay a hard working guy in a private bike shop 100 more for the same bike than by the junk from wal mart, there used to be great mom and pop shops and stores all across small town americam where people worked ,shopped and grew,now the is no small town america,thanks to walmart and short sighted people who are quik to save a buck,but slow to make a stand,,and were getting closer to being like the poor slob in china everyday because of that.Tim

[Steve R]

TK,
Those people who used to make the Scwhinns are now available to work in a job that is relevant today. If I lost my job
tomorrow, I wouldn't just go in a corner and suck my thumb. I doubt you would either.
Steve

[KobraKarl]

Steve R

The price on that schwinn will ultimately cost you, or one of your family their job.....

Im not kidding myself ....are you kidding yourself...

Shin,

Funny,.... myself and all the guys in my company do a damn fine job, work long hours,and dont complain either........

Of course we pay medical care so our employees dont have to leach off the state ...

and we pay insurance so you dont get your ass sued off when one of them falls off your roof

and we pay taxes so our government can function

and we pay social security so your mom can get a check

and we also spend our money in your store...



Glad you saved a buck...my guess is you'll give it back eventually..


KK

[Turk]

If we want to wait until the standard of living in every country to rise up while ours drop to where they are even, I suppose outsourcing is fantastic.

Is this why all those before us worked so hard to make this country better than the rest of the world , so we can find ourselves competing with those who are happy to make $5.00 an hour or a day.

What are you all smoking?

TURK

[TerrysSPF]

John550: I'm the guy complaining about the teachers in my area striking for a 10% raise. ....They want 10% per year for the next 3 years (30+%), during a time that people are being laid off due to a slow economy. Are you getting a 10% raise this year? Next year?? ....I know I'm not.
Teachers in my area are making 90K+ for working about 7 mths a year total. That's 12,857.00+ per month. You're right, our kids are our future and we should have the best teachers around to educate our children. ....But is that what we're getting? Hell, most kids that graduate from HS aren't smart enough to fill out a job application properly. Because of the unions, teachers have no accountability and do not need to answer to anyone if someones kid graduates and cannot read or write. Just try and fire a bad teacher some time, and see the can of worms you open.
Oh, and your comment about the Airlines and their "Billions" in profit.........most are operating in the red, and a couple large airlines have filed bankruptcy in the past couple years. A lot was due to unions refusing to take a smaller pay increase and not willing to help pay for their own health insurance, to help keep the company afloat.

[SPEEDEAMON]

KobraKarl,

I didn't save a buck. My roof cost me $31K. The roofer I used was not the lowest bid but the middle of three bids. Whether I used them or the highest bidder the laborers will still be Hispanic in this town. Like you, I also worked hard, never complained except to my wife when I got home, diligently paid taxes and insurance and in my case I was non-union so overtime did not count. Arnold rescinded the driver's license intiative for illegal aliens in Calif. but what's the big deal. Think about it. Do the illegals really want a license. Once they apply for one, they must get insurance and register their car, pay taxes and obey the law like everyone else. So why would they want that when they are doing just fine without it for free. No identity, no pay insurance, no pay tax. Wonder why there are Check Cashing businesses? Becasue they don't have a bank account. They have us who pay taxes and obey the law who covers them. We're the ones who screwed ourselves.

[KobraKarl]

Are you telling me you cant hire a legit contractor who is using US citizens???


And yes,...we agree we ARE screwing ourselves.

KK

[snake oil]

KK,
Sorry if I implied that you have a problem with hispanics.
That's they part of this thread sounded to me.
Again I did not mean to offend you.

[scottj]

I think if you don’t understand how the increasing US trade deficit affects the American way of life, then you owe it to yourself and society to educate yourself. Teachers, politicians, and the media certainly aren’t going to do it for you. Actually, in 7th grade, my teacher gave the class an economics project where the class divided into groups that represented countries. We learned that countries could not for long sustain large, ever-growing trade deficits.

Until the 1970s, the US enjoyed a trade surplus. Additionally, the surplus was reinvested abroad, resulting in increasing net holding of foreign assets. The benefit of increasing net holdings was increasing net investment income from those holdings. The net holdings reached a high of $360 billion in 1980. In the late 1970 the trade situation reversed and we had a deficit equal to 1% of the GDP. Today the deficit is over 4% of the GDP. Even worse is the fact that the rest of the world now owns $2.5 trillion more of the US than we own of the rest of the world. The negative net ownership is equal to 5% of the US national wealth and it is currently growing at 1% per year. Also increasing is the negative net income from those holdings.

We, as a nation have become obsessed with consumables and are increasingly trading the net worth of the nation to pay for these consumables. Essentially, you could liken the US to a very wealthy family whose kids inherited an immense fortune. The kids, instead of maintaining the estate, are on a huge spending spree. They are paying for this spree by trading assets, while lowering their ability to earn income from those assets.

To quote Herb Stein, "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop."

Some of you guys are he!! bent on authenticity re: your Cobras. You gotta have a Ford engine. Then you stuff it full of Chinese cranks, rods etc. You won’t find Eagle, Scat, Cat, Manley, or any other foreign junk in mine.