American vs. Cheap

[Turk]

Honda with 140,000 miles is not that impressive as Impala or Malibu with 150,000 when many don't expect that they could last that long.

How many timing chains?

If we made the GM owners subject to the same maintenance requirements most import owners willingly submit to, no one knows what mileage a Ford or a Chevy would get.
You do have a much more regimented maint. schedule. They do replace some parts before failure. We can't even get our customers to come in for a tune up or an oil change.

Not long ago we were selling the same car as Toyota Tercel. Ours was called Geo Prism.
They out sold us something like 10 to 1. We dropped the model, and I believe Toyota is still selling theirs.

The success and the failure was not based on any facts. It was based on Myth! Same car that came from the same factory with two different names.

We could argue we did it to ourselves, the unions, the greedy corporations etc. If you told me you are buying your Toyota and Honda based on wanting to ***** slap American Manufacturers for what they have done , I am with you. Teach them a lesson. Keep buying imports until they say uncle.

If you tell me you are buying them because they are better , I have to disagree.

Try the new Malibu with the remote starter etc.....

TURK

Hummer people lined up to buy and pay over sticker has one of the worst CSI numbers of any car sold. Yet you all are lined up to buy one over other products. American buying public says one thing does something else. If quality mattered NO HUMMER should be sold, yet they are!!

[James Baldwin]

Turk,

For what it is worth, I have had a Deville and an STS and both were great cars to 100K. And the best vehicle I have owned (service-wise) to date was a 1990 Pontiac Transport SE (128K and only one warranty service for paint). You people make good cars as far as I am concerned. I would buy another GM if only they didn't make them so ugly now

We owend a Ford Exploder and did not feel it was very good quality but then I leased a 300M ... within 6 months: 3 power window motors, A/C compressor, new power seat, new stereo, replacement of both struts, rattles, rattles, rattles... bye bye lease car

My wife's Lexus GS300 Sport... Best, most solid car we have had yet. Too bad she got a company car and we had to sell it.

As for cars, I really don't think twice about where it is made when I buy one because you really just don't know anymore it seems..

[ToyCollector]

Originally posted by Turk


How many timing chains?

If we made the GM owners subject to the same maintenance requirements most import owners willingly submit to, no one knows what mileage a Ford or a Chevy would get.

A very solid and accurate observation. I was shocked to learn in the early 90s that timing chains WERE STRONGLY urged to be replaced at 60K miles in most cases, 45K in others. At the time we had a Maxima V-6, and I had the V-6 that was in the Acura, although I the dumbass thought a Sterling was more intriguing than an Acura (essentially same car underneath). Wifey poo drove through a 30 something degree puddle with her Maxima. Iron block and aluminum heads do not do well after they shock cool together. Heads were toast. Back to thread topic.

[Nuke427]

Did you read my post. Oil changes, filter changes, tires. Nothing else. Honda is a great car and until they let me down, I'll stick with them. They may go south and GM may wake up, but professional grade people, come on. My brother has a '96 vette. It is the biggest rattle trap I've ever ridden in. The electric locks have a mind of there own. When I drove my Honda's at night, I thought I was in a brand new car minus the smell. At night I couldn't see the dirty carpets and dust on the dash. Never said I like Toyota. Many, many 300,000+ mile accords out there. Resale tells the story, early '90's accord ~ $3,000, early '90's chevy sedan $1,500 if you're lucky, even if grandma driven and only 60,000 miles.

[Turk]

Just to show how fair I am, I have to agree with James, GM is the King of Ugly.

I have been arguing with them as vociferously as I am capable of and literaly torturing anyone who will listen regarding their design team.

The fact that they got Bob Lutz a 65 year old man as the new blood for design says a lot. Mr. Lutz is very good, and has very good credentials and probably the only guy at GM with a passion for cars.
Just that they had no one in there before for a long time.

Nuke427

I did read it. I just thought you might have forgotton to list other repairs besides oil changes. If you say there were none, I believe you.
As for the Corvette, probably a fairer comparison may have been the NSX or one of them 4 wheel steering Preludes. Not doing too well in resale dept.

TURK

[casaleenie]

Honda puts their pants on one leg at a time just like almost every other car manufacturer.....
No less prone to malfunction than almost any other car..

Drove my last two Chrysler van 200,000 miles each and sold them to friends... Can't beat that... I had the trans rebuilt in the 1993 model at 136K for $800. Original belts and exhaust...
Second one 1996 had a problem with the A/C at 150K and didn't do anything about it....

Bought Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, Nissans etc. and did more than normal repairs.... The Land Cruisers were the worst... Loved them when they ran and cried when they broke.. Very expensive to fix..


Turk made a great point with the maintenance thing... We baby the foreign cars with periodic maintenance and expect the American built cars to last while we ignore the required preventative maint.
I've got an Infiniti QX4 that has been a constant source of aggravation and a Ford 150 that has been an absolute pleasure.
Paid 19K more for the Infiniti...
and I agree... GM is the King of Ugly.... What the hell are they thinking.... However, they have gotten the Cadillacs correct..
What a great looking car... Those I would consider... Beautiful

By the way,, does this posting have anything to do with the original thread???? I'm so confused...

[Excaliber]

218,000 miles on my Toyota Camry.

,,,,gawd I hate that car!!! I can't wait till it finally expires! Throws a rod or SOMTHING!!! I punish it, I don't care, me and that car are SO over. But it won't die, and I can't kill it. Think I'll go out and dump the clutch a few times tonight! I long ago got all my money back out of that ride!!!

Ernie

[RockSnake]

No Judgement here, just clarification:

- When I started this post, in intentionally did not use the word "quality". In every society, there are hard-workers, and lazy #$@, good designs and poor, accuracy and shortcuts.

- The Japanese are adamant about the rice imports, because of historical roots. At one time, their unit of currency was "koku"...the amount rice required to feed a man for one year. No judgement, just accuracy.

- The Dell deal only applies to business accounts. The customer service for consumers will continue to be handled in India.

I'm still finding this an entertaining discussion...thanks!

[Steve R]

Ernie,
She's still young. I got 280,000 out of my Toyota pickup.
Steve

[misfit41]

I have just realized Turk and I agree on a lot,,case in point german cars,,thats a huge myth,given they are well engineered structually,,other wise junk,,if you read the required maintenance you could buy a new ford or chevy every 5 years just to keep up a bmw,,much less a mercedes.
130k is not impressive to me,,ford escorts or chevy cavailers will go 160- 180 with any kind of luck,it's my experience the low end US cars last the best,,maybe true in all cars,and the explorer,,I LOVE fords,,but its junk,..,always was.
many american cars will go 150 200 k,,on the engine,,our transmissions are really weak,but the difference to me is when they have 130 k,they feel worn out,an import at 160 feels like it did at 30 thou,,thats quality,gm ,ford ,everyone makes cars that will run a long time,,that dosent make them good cars ,lots of other factors.
Chrysler blows my mind,decent v 6 power plants,and great designs,but junk,junk,junk,look under a new truck and you see 1976,same with the cars,,hell there all k cars,not much better at least,slam the accelerator to the floor and hold hard left on the wheel,let off and try not to hit the ditch,,they spend 70 percent less on r&d than gm or ford,sell the same old thing with new skin at MUCH more profit per unit than anyone,huge rebates to make it look good,Turk knows what I mean,when a guy has rough credit,or is big time upside down,when he cant buy anything else,,a good F&I guy can put him into a chrysler,thats why the resale is nothing,,rule of thumb is you never recoup dealer/mfg profit on resale,chrysler is all profit.
Another myth to me is consumer reports,it is a worthless magazine printed by people who dont know squat about what ever it is their testing,a road map for the blind,it amazes me smart people who cant make a decision ,but trust consumer reports.
it's easy to see what car as good or not, compare used car lots for resale and avalibility of 2 year old models,if any one knows cars,it's a used car dealer who can choose what he sells.
I think the basic camry is maybe the best car in the usa,but with the give away prices on 03 used cars,I may have to go with a taurus or malibu,both are decent cars in my book.
Then again,,I like trucks,,Tim

[G.R.]

Originally posted by misfit41


Your on the money my friend,no one feels the true state of the economy like a car guy,,

Tim
Have to disagree with you on that statement. When the economy starts to tank the construction business is the first to feel it's impact--money gets tighter from the lenders, projects suddenly lose their backing and the carpenters, drywallers, hvac guys, plumbers, electricians, concrete workers are slowly out of work--they can't afford that new car or truck when they don't have a job.

Others,
I get really P.O. when every time "illlegals" comes up with some denigrating the Hispanics--spend some time learning about them, and their culture, until you do you don't realize how or the reason why they come here--you have never been in their shoes, just hope you learn their love of family and community along he way. I'll grant that there is a problem with them coming here undocumented--You ever been to Mexico, or any other country in South of the U.S., and try to get things done so that you are "legal", you could end up old and destined for the grave before anything was done in your behalf if you're poor. It's hard enough if you are an American and have some money.
I've worked with Hispanics both legal and illegal over the years in construction. I have good friends who are Hispanic.
Joe Bubba Redneck, CharlieChan or, Muhaameed AL Jihad with a few bucks can go buy a car or truck, go to a local cut-rate so called insurance company, get insurance coverage, on the monthly plan, get his car registered, and drive off "legal". 30 days later he too is uninsured because he didn't pay the premium--yet continues to drive the hi-ways and byways--
Sorry for the rant here but I'm related to Hispanics by marriage, I've worked side-by-side with them for 35 years, and I've spent almost 2 yrs sailing in Mexico -- they are not the only illegals in this country, they aren't the only ones sending their earnings "home"--where to do you think the Chinese, Korean, Indian, Filipino owners and workers in the Convience stores and such are doing with their money-- sending it back home so brothers and sisters and their families, mother and father, granny and gramps, and cousins and their families can come here too.
It just isn't the Hispanics--Por Favor

[Nuke427]

Well guys I've really just been stating my opinion. A Reactor engineer in my Nuclear license class may have a statement that describes most of us on this topic. "I'm not sure I understand everthing I know about this."

[Steve R]

Turk,
You really made me reflect about cities, schools ect.
You wrote:

"As for the Schwinn, try riding it in the wrong part of town after sunset and see if my predictions of violence etc comes true or
not.
Not because it is Chinese made, it is because you are on a bike all alone in the dark.
That was not a concern 35 years ago when I rode my bike. That to me is a definite drop in the quality of standards in our lives."

That may be your experience. I grew up in New Jersey. I can without a doubt say I would be safer today riding my bike
through Newark than 35 years ago....without a doubt. You see, back in them good old days IT WAS ON FIRE FROM
RIOTS!

Back in the good old days late 60's, through the early 80's (when I grew up) We frequently went into N.Y.C. Whether it was
for Christmas shopping or going to Grandma's in Queens, or to see dad at work. I can tell you that without a doubt N.Y.C. has
made a miraculous Transformation from a filthy, sleazy, crime ridden $hit hole (Were talking graffiti all over the trains, bums
pissing on the subway platforms- the subways smelled of urine, garbage all over the place hookers and drug dealers doing
business totally out in the open, Seeing 4 or 5 burnt out hulks of cars on the side of the cross Bronx expressway on the way to
Grandma's, I could go on and on.) To a place I can actually enjoy with my kids.

Ask someone from Cleveland Ohio how much that city has improved. How about you guys from Boston? The trend of urban
renewal is countrywide from what I can see.

As far as violence in schools goes, My son's middle school is magnitudes safer and friendlier than the one I went to. (and I went
to one in an upper middle class area)

You wrote:

"Steel belt is full of more examples than I can list."

They used to call it the "rust belt" I haven't heard that in a while since it has adapted itself to the current economy.

"Similar things are happening to younger generation right here in the Silicon Belt. They have big BMW payments and large
mortgages, and no jobs."

That kind of thing has happened many time from the great depression till now. I guess it is the price of the capitalist system.
I just don't see the doom and gloom. I feel so fortunate to live in this country at this time.
Steve

[Turk]

Me too.

G.R.
Any reference to illegals by me is just that. Illegals. there are many who are not Hispanic. It is not their culture that is a suspect, their status.

It is also true that when we talk about illegals in California we are mostly referring to those from Mexico.

If you found anything in what I said that IS denegrading the culture or Hispanics, my apologies. I still have a hard time with "illegals' whether they be from Mexico, Cuba, or Canada. Something about the status of being illegal in a country that has frequent amnesty programs, and is rather charitable acceptance of all, and making demands like they did today by boycotting , closing shops and carrying signs demanding Drivers Licanses, just irks me.
Maybe I got this all wrong.

TURK

[Steve R]

GR,
I couldn't agree more about the Mexican population here in Houston. They work there asses off. The 2 Mexican guys on my
crew are hard working, smart, humble and very family oriented. Impressive.
Steve

[TerrysSPF]

Turk.............no, I'd say you much hit the nail on the head.

True, there ARE many different forms of "illegals" in our country, but it's the Mexicans that are walking accross our borders by the count of 10,000+ per day.

G.R. I HAVE been to Mexico......many times. It's not the people or their culture that I'm upset about. They love their families and want whats best for them. ....But if they think they can have a better life HERE......go about it LEGALLY. Once they prove that they don't care about breaking our laws regarding citizenship, or legal entry into our country......what OTHER laws don't they care about while they are here??? Then to see the crap they pulled today DEMANDING drivers licenses......c'mon. Who they hell do they think they are coming here ILLEGALLY and making DEMANDS on US!!?? What will it take before this country wakes up!!??
It seems some of you have forgotten what the word "illegal" means. Look it up in the dictionary......and then ask your congressmen to look it up as well. It seems our government has forgotten what it means also.

As for cars.....foreign and domestic. I've had BOTH in my day and have had BOTH run for well over 100K and I've had BOTH break down well before that. My wife had a 89 Celica that was the biggest piece of $hit we've ever owned. Went through 2 engines inside 65K miles. There was obviously a defect (same problem / same cyl both times) but they refused to fix it under warranty the 2nd time......over 2K in repairs and it lasted 11K miles and went out again. Junked it. Had a neighbor with the same car, same year.....same problems. I will never touch another Toyota again, and they lost a sale when we bought our last car because she really liked the Lexus GS430 ....but I told her it was just an overpriced Toyota. We bought a BMW540I and it's been nothing short of outstanding. Probably the best car we have owned (haven't owned the Bimmer long enough to qualify it as "best" yet) was a 94 Acura Vigor. 180K miles and NEVER had a problem of any kind. Regular maintenance, and it ran like a top! It had a 5 cyl engine that would rev like nobodys business! I also had a Blazer that ran for 180K miles.....but had a few "problems" along the way. Nothing too serious though....kept me going for a long time! Had a 89 Escort that I bought one winter for a "winter beater" many years ago (early 90's). It was meant to get me by for 1 winter and I ended up keeping the thing for 4 yrs and 120K miles! Best car I've ever driven in the snow! ...On the other hand, I currently own a '01 Jeep Cherokee.....biggest peice of crap I've ever owned, and I bought it brand new (so I know it has been taken care of!). Damn thing is in the shop more than it's in my garage! There isn't much on it that hasn't been replaced due to failure. Problem now is....it's out of warranty. Now it will become a money pit, and Jeep will be laughing at me all the way to the bank. What's up with a 36K mile warranty? Can't they build a better vehicle then THAT!!??

I guess my point would be (after all that ranting and raving), it's pretty much hit or miss with cars. There are good ones and bad ones no matter WHO built them. All we can do as a consumer, is take the best care we can of them and PRAY we didn't get one of the companies LEMONS!

[Ed Hubbard]

Just thinking about Mexican immigrants - can they even get into the country leggally anymore??? Its next to impossible (with my companies backing) to get a highly educated worker into the country on a permanent basis, how the heck does a dirt-poor family from Mexico make this happen?

I think the answer is that they can't legally which is why they do it any other way they can.

[Steve R]

Ed,
One of my co-workers fathers joined the army. he finished his tour and recieved citizenship. I Don't know if that hapens today.
Steve

[vettestr]

Our Goverment provides FREE assistance to obtain temp work visa. That means they pay % for tax etc so guess what happens. Who can take anything from a man wanting better for his family and working to get it UNTIL he chooses to steal it from my child and family. Do not kid yourself about how many ways it is costing you and your family. Living in a border state I pay much higher auto insur., medical and on and on. The bigger thief is the USA employer knowing hiring illegals to line his pockets with The screw you I'm getting mine attitude. It is hard to keep margin on a high quality product while meeting all OSHA , medical. benifits etc. if your competitor hires all Illegals and does not have same costs.
Close the borders to illegals, if caught charge the home country for all medical, housing, transport and related costs. Take the costs right out of monies given daily to these goverments because they will never pay the bill if you do not.
In Arizona News, imigration refused to take custody of 15 illegals in traffic accident (no insurance by the way ) because they were to busy. Cops turned them loose after immigration would not come get them.

[misfit41]

G.R.
I can see we both have first hand experience of economic slowdowns,I suppose it effects you in many ways the same as car people,it always seemed that we could feel it being tight 2 years before the rest of the country see's it,heck by the time we read recession in the paper,it is usually on the up swing in the car biz,seems to me when money gets tight,a new car is the first thing the public can live without,including the construction people.
I have nothing against the hispanic people,what does" chap" me is the thousand of freaking "Mexcans"who sneak across the border daily,carrying a high percentage of our countrys illegal drug trade along with them,sending the huge profits back home to some evil cartel boss who in turn sends over 100 more with a few "mules" in the mix.
I have been to mexico,if Cancun counts,I realize they are a dirt poor country,always have been ,usa or no usa,I also realize this country was built by immigrants,people who came here to BUILD something ,not who came here to infringe on our culture and gain from our prosper.
I am all for legal immigration,although if we continue taking the current numbers ,legal or other wise,we will greatly lower our quality of life,DO THE MATH !,jobs south,mexicans north,we're paying people there to build more stuff than people here will have money to buy,matter of time my friends.
And now they protest for drivers license's..WOW,,why do we permit this to happen ? way to many bleeding hearts ,had our forefathers thought like this,we wouldnt have such a great country.
I know I am dragging this,but,from the rational of helping the poor of other countrys to the extent of taking them all in,ever think ,when your driving thru a depressed part of town ,seeing all the poor kids and elderly on the corners,or the balconies of the run down mass housing,stop the lexus and give a hundred or two,, heck,,make the next corner too,pass out a few 20's,it is the season.how far will your money go ? if you did it for a month would you family suffer its quality of life ?
now picture that on a scale huger than any of us can imagine,,,Tim