American vs. Cheap - Page 8

Turk · #**141** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 02:17 PM

Let's agree to disagree.
Most economists now tell us, exporting jobs is not good for the future of this country. If it was, Chinese would be exporting theirs to us.

Let's see how well the 4000-5000 IBM workers who are in the process of loosing their jobs fare in the upcoming months, and years.
It is not all doom and gloom, unless you are NOT working.

TURK

Steve R · #**142** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 03:57 PM

Turk,
Fair enough. I wish those people all the best. Maybe some will retrain and help shrink the nursing shortage, for instance.
Steve

boilerrat · #**143** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 04:15 PM

Excellent posts! This is getting better than OPRAH....LOL

RockSnake · #**144** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 05:45 PM

Nursing Shortage! If ever there was a case where capitalism does not work, it is the medical field.

I have several relatives in Nursing, Radiation Tech, etc. They regularly get offers for jobs in another hospital, clinic, etc. But the callers NEVER offer more money. All the facilities pay the same rates...but don't accuse them of collusion! If shortages were a reality, supply and demand SHOULD take-over, but only in the absence of controls. Beyond that, a low-end mechanic can make more money (per hr) than a nurse, and not have to worry about being blamed for a death or mistreatment.

As far as retraining. Most of us don't have the money necessary to support our families for 2 or more years while we learn these new skills (eg nursing), so that we can start-over from scratch.

It occurs to me that the comments regarding "retraining", "new reality", and "capitalism", ring surprisingly familiar. Something like "are there no prisons, are there no work-houses?".

Hopefully, my final comment: My father-in-law was layed-off from a job he truly loved, and never recovered. The remainder of his life, he managed to earn just enough money to buy food and liquor. He died diseased and penniless because of someone else's greed, and his emotional inability to recover. Is it better for society to abandon enthusiastic, motivated, workers in the name of capitalism?

Steve R · #**145** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 06:54 PM

David,
You obviously know more about the nurse profession than I do. I just know that the hospitals here in Houston are constantly
looking for people and offer signing bonuses. That is why I tossed it out there. After a little search, I found the national average to be about $45k yr. I have wondered why the shortage exists. With all the baby boomers reaching retirement something is going to have to give. Thanks for the insight. As I understand it, there is federal education assistance being offered to people interested in the field.
You wrote:
"are there no prisons, are there no work-houses?".
I am not familiar with this quote. please explain.
I am truly sorry to hear of your father in-law.
My father in-law is a chemical engineer that was laid off in the 80's. After looking for work in his field, he decided to start his own home repair business and has been at it since.
Steve

KobraKarl · #**146** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 07:28 PM

Stever,,

While I agree it is up to everyone to make the best of whatever situation arises......a man with a 20 year career does not start over and hop back on the bus in a week or two......
....when the last "housecleaning" took place in the early 80's millions of downsized Americans lost their homes and families....then finished their golden years serving at jack in the box.........
To avoid this the next time , the drill was "get a Technical education"..... so now people with 4 to 6 year degree's in computor science are finding their jobs .....G.O.N.E....thats right, our best and brightest....soon serving dinner near you....
..or should they get back to college at the age of 35/40 for another 4 years......and what ingenious carreer should they embark upon that wont be sold out the back door before they are out of school!

The other half of this plays out badly as well.............1/2 of All Americans- by definition- are below average IQ....1/2..!!
What should they do when all the mill and manufacturing jobs they have held for centuries disappear overseas...??? what are these non-geniusses going to do .......sell Coffee..?? how does welfare sound......or massive government intervention like the WPA......

This is a dangerous game of musical chairs.......and you know how that game comes out.

KK

Steve R · #**147** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 07:58 PM

OK guys,
What changes or legislation do you think we should adopt? It may not sound like it, but I am willing to listen and learn.
Steve

KK, you wrote: "what are these non-geniusses going to do .......sell Coffee..?? Hey don't knock it. I hear those Starbucks franchises are real money pumps! ....sorry I couldn't
resist.

boilerrat · #**148** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 07:59 PM

I'm really enjoying all the postings here and I'm very impressed that it hasn't reached the political arena. There is a lot of good feedback here. I'm mad too Eddie!

KobraKarl · #**149** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 08:18 PM

Admitting we have a problem.........that by itself would open up a lot of doors.....

I am not a big fan of a protectionist policy.......... but that weird little guy from Texas.....Ross Perot sure looks like the only guy to get it right 12 or so years ago.....remember "that giant sucking sound"......he was talking about Mexico.....but it looks like he was still right......How about a Perot /Buchannon ticket...at least their idiologies deserve another look.

KK

Steve R · #**150** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 08:26 PM

Karl,
Let's hear some specifics. "I'm all ears"

Steve
Karl Please excuse my many post scrips. I just re-read some comments you made..... "..or should they get back to college at
the age of 35/40 for another 4 years"
My question is: (since I did not attend college) Would a person with a 4 year degree need to go another 4 years? Isn't the first
2 years of college pretty generic? Wouldn't that carry over to a new discipline?, or am I way off base here?

KobraKarl · #**151** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 08:52 PM

Well Steve ,as you may already know....Any damn fool can tear down a barn ......It does take a carpenter to build one....

.....What i am trying to say is ...I dont know that I have a solution...but I think we need to change course...soon ....maybe its time to "chuck" NAFTA....Buchannon has been championing "isolationist" policies as long as I remember....tariffs (sp) on imports etc. for unequal trading partners..
..as I mentioned in an earlier post, We could at least put some teeth in our Border control ...which I believe I have commented on sufficiently...

your turn....KK

Steve...I also did not hve the opourtunity to attend college....I went to work at age 15...still there...
.............I have been pretty successfull in my bussinesses..maybe like yourself...Its easy to get a snootfull of attitude about "Rags to Richs ...self made men.....own bootstraps and all that good stuff...But not only have I busted my ass ,...and taken big risks,...Ive been lucky.......probably luckier than i realize.........
......It is not a job prescription for the masses.....

KK

Edley Rondinone · #**152** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 09:26 PM

Here's an idea: To entice manufacturing and other high-tech businesses BACK into the USA, somehow make it financially beneficial tax-wise for the companies to come back.....the more jobs created, the lower taxes that company pays.

Turk · #**153** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 09:48 PM

How about we take the welfare unemployment, lost tax revenues, food stamps and the medical expenses spent on the unemployed, underemployed, and those on welfare and use THAT money to subsidize the companies looking to bail out for LEGIT reasons and keep them here on our soil and keep more people employed and have them pay taxes rather then receive assistance.

If every company who can go overseas, or over the border did.....we would all have to become nurses, or go back to school at 40,50 or at 60 years old and retrain for new professions.

My pilot friend with 17 years with US AIR got offered numerous positions with some commuters back East. After 17 years flying jets, he can now start all over again at $25,000 a year!!

Unemployment is bad!.Sometimes unavoidable. Unemployment as a result of wanting to buy stir sticks .0000001 cheaper from China is bad business.

TURK

KobraKarl · #**154** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 09:59 PM

I was Christmas shopping this last week end,.....and this thread popped into my head,......I began to pick up items and examine them for country of origin..........Oh..My...God..!!! ..It was way worse than I imagined.....I was able to find an item made in Canada....the rest ....you guessed it ....

Take a look as you shop this week .........if you dare.....

KK

foothills gary · #**155** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 10:19 PM

When this Country was founded,revenue to run the limited Government came from tariffs on foreign goods to prevent just this situation that we have now-unfair competition.This allowed Americans to innovate and prosper without interference from Big Bro.Personal income tax and "social security"(the king of oxymorons!)are 20th century phenomenons.I still know some old timers who remember no deductions from their paycheck at all!Until businesses are spanked hard with tariffs for going offshore,and rewarded for staying and providing jobs(instead of the other way around) this situation is not going to change.I agree that this money could be used to provide low interest loans for small business,or to supplement wages to bring them to par especially for businesses who are willing to train on the job but are undercapitalized to the extent that they could not afford the new employee until their skills are learned and they become productive.

aumoore · #**156** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 10:22 PM

AS long as we have jobs or successful businesses not affected by foreign trade we can all say exporting jobs is great for the "American Way" but when you loose your engineering, accounting, manufacturing, etc., job to someone in India or China you will my friend change your tune. Can you Imagine having to come home and tell your wife and children that you have been out bid by cheeper competition in India so we will have to lose our home or little Johnny will have to forgo college and look forward to a career at the Walmart Garden center.

Every day someone figures how to move all High paying jobs overseas. Architects are now outsourcing drafting to India. How much longer will it be before we just skip the Architect down the street and Hire one in India as well? If you get your taxes done by a tax service there is a pretty good chance the info is faxed and e-mailed overseas so it can be done for Half the price it can be done here. Very few jobs that pay enough to actually live on here in the good old USA are safe from foreign competition. Even X-rays are now being e-mailed overseas and getting read by a Doctor that probably does not speak your native tongue.

Someone mentioned that 1/2 of the population is below average intelligence but they may be the smart ones as they may be the only people employed in the future.

I fear that one day we will figure out how to make our military wepons cheaper in China or the Middle East.

Turk · #**157** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 10:51 PM

I resent the term "Protectionist" when it comes to the livelihood of Americans.

We are loosing jobs to others who ARE protectionists. I don't know any other country who welcomes trade with US that does NOT benefit them.

I am beginning to think that half of us not being too bright to be a generous assessment.

Assume for a moment that everything can be built elsewhere for less. IT CAN!
Assume for a moment that they can do whatever they want to with the new wealth they accumulated. THEY CAN!
Also assume, they can not be happy in their own country with their new found wealth. THEY ARE NOT!

What next? A new mass migration of Orientals who want to come in and live in US and have the money to do so. Pretty soon we will be the ones owning the Chinese restraints, and other service industries, and the out of work engineers can start making beds at Holiday INN.

If the big picture is not so obvious I wouldn't see what lurks over the horizon either.
Given the right education and few bucks in my pocket, I came over. Others will too. It is just a matter of how many of us this country can accept and still be THIS Country.

Does this make me a racist, protectionist, right wing intolerant immigrant?

TURK

foothills gary · #**158** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 11:08 PM

In case no one has noticed,jobs on American soil especially in health care are rapidly being absorbed by foreign trained personnel with green card status.Many American students are steering clear of the health professions because of the high cost of education,the years of dedicated training with accompaning lost wages,and the specter of malpractice to deal with.After they pay malpractice,and their school loan payment every month,they will probably be eating Top Ramen for 20 years(ouch!I guess that's an import too!).They are smart enough to know a 2 year community college course in auto tech will net them higher salary,much faster.The" imports" don't come with school loan payments,and don't have to worry about malpractice-if there's a claim,it's ciao,baby and send over brother and /or sis.

brentfenimore · #**159** (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 11:49 PM

All,

What if we (Shelby) were to make the best of both worlds and complete vehicles in the US using outside sources for components?

What if the CSX4000 platform was used to create enough profit to build other platforms and employ additional US workers in mass qty?

What if we would not have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars by trying to keep this an American Machine competing against a foreign manufacturers?

I do not want to chuck the rocks but why is it acceptable for others to build off shore but not us, if I am not mistaken I thought CS started this whole INTER-CONTENTIAL PERFORMACE AND MANUFACTURING ADVANTAGE BACK IN THE 60'S.

SAI has gone through it's share of lumps over the course of the past few years and has not and by no means plans to lay-off anyone unless they are slackers. I ask that you give us enough time to get back on track and then we can start to chuck rocks. CS will not and does not intend to take away from either the US economy or the US worker.

Thanks,

R Brent Fenimore

Turk · #**160** (**permalink**) 12-18-2003, 12:39 AM

Brent,
CS is small potatoes as compared to massive layoffs we are talking about.
If CS can build overseas, the components and entire cars and keep their business going and keep their employees employed, it would probably be OK as compared to shutting the doors down and laying off everyone.

Unfortunately the companies that are suspect are the big ones who decide they can add to the bottom line by moving overseas.

If the result is, employees who used to work there who can no longer buy the products they once made (however cheaper) it is NOT a good thing.
I'll put it in terms you can understand as it relates to your industry.

If GM could build all their cars in Mexico, because labor is less costly, environmental issues are not a concern, business climate is good.....
How many cars do you think they would be selling in Detroit, and to WHOM?

Sadly enough I too buy foreign goods, sometimes NOT because they are cheaper or better, I buy them because that is all that is available.

If EVERY company did that, from produce grown in Mexico to goods manufactured in the Orient, what are Americans supposed to do? How do they remain as consumers of these goods if they are NOT working.

What applies to US versus Overseas, is happening right here under our own noses in a smaller scale. Many California businesses have left California, and moved to Nevada. Reno is now the distribution center for a lot of goods and major companies who serve California.

California made damn sure that they are better of doing business there. The companies did what they had to do. They went there.
Now California no longer has those jobs, and lost the revenue from such businesses.

It seems benign, and sound business when done in a small scale. It benefits the company and their consumers. When done in a large scale, it is devastating.

If EVERY company moved to Reno and Las Vegas for cheap labor, and better business climate, and all we were left with were people out of job with still the same needs as before, schools, emergency services, roads, social services, our deficit would not be 35 Billion, it would have to be 35 zillion.

TURK
The Economist