Tko600 Warning!!!!

[KEISLERGENE]

At this point Keisler is off the list. Not because I side with Fordfan, but just because I hate any hassle.
I

This is probably what some of you guys were talking about.

What hassle are you refering too. the one where we offered this person a solution. then he decided to post false statment to fix his mistake.

or is it because of his hearsay and our documentation?


This guy has generated posts on three forums with almost 6 thousand veiws
and only a small % posting. I have to think there some of the people out there like you, and I hope the rest will see the fact that we are here to help.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. I just hope you all can see through the smoke and see we are a repituable company.

Gene

[ByronRACE]

Originally Posted by KEISLERGENE

This guy has generated posts on three forums with almost 6 thousand veiws

Even more disturbing is what will happen when the search engines find this thread and index it. I'd be willing to bet it'll be pretty darn high on the list if you search for Keisler or TKO600, considering how many times it appears in the thread. It's a gift that keeps on giving.

I.E. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ng&btnG=Search

[KEISLERGENE]

Originally Posted by ByronRACE

Even more disturbing is what will happen when the search engines find this thread and index it. I'd be willing to bet it'll be pretty darn high on the list if you search for Keisler or TKO600, considering how many times it appears in the thread. It's a gift that keeps on giving.

I.E. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ng&btnG=Search

I want your job all this and going to Maui too

[ByronRACE]

Originally Posted by KEISLERGENE

I want your job all this and going to Maui too

I know! Can it get any better?

By the way, who has the burden of proof regarding abuse? The manufacturer or the customer? You got that exhaustive test report handy? Sure would like to see it.

[jamesfast]

I have the old TKO in my mustang, 471rwhp and 489rwtq with over 100 drag strip passes on it no problems. I can't fig out how you could bust one on a 2000lb car.

[ItBites]

Gene,

The hassle is really just me mulling over and over whether I (I'm a rocket scientist) I think Tremec is incapable of ever making a bad gear (I know you and supposedly also Tremec say the gear is not bad) and if I'd be unlucky enough to get the bad gear, and if I'd get a fair investigation if I thought a failed gear might be bad. I can tell you that in the real world (not aftermarket toy-car stuff) we would do a lot more than just look at a gear that failed before we'd assign a cause. I employ many metallurgist types that use SEM and other techniques to look at fractures before I jump to a conclusion about a source of a failure. I just do not have time to deal with any company that I have any questions about.

And as far as heresay goes, I was referring to your description of the Tremec rep and what he had to say about all this. Since the Tremec rep has not posted the results of his analysis, all his statements are heresay provided by you...

I have to agree with several folks here who have indicated that they would be concerned about a philosophy of requiring the customer to prove the fault lies with the supplier. If Tremec would send a written failure analysis report, stating the methods utilized and the results of this wethods (other than "I looked at it and this is my opinion"), I'd be more inclined to not be worried.

All in all, I'll go with a supplier that I have not heard of problems with.

[scott coyle]

Guys,

Tremec had issues in the past with the case expanding on 3550's when the tranny is loaded, and third gear breaks. If you add in a heavy car(dodge) and the difference between second and third gear ratio's, they are far apart, it looks like it loaded the tranny, the case expanded and the teeth snapped off.

First and second are pretty low gears, so even in a heavy vehicle, they usually won't break. 4th gear is direct, so it won't load the tranny. Thats why third gear breaks. In a cobra, the vehicle is so light, the tranny is not really loaded as much as a heavier vehicle, so breakage is less likely.

Why should they warranty it? The tranny worked fine. If you buy a cup motor from a cup engine builder, there is no warranty. Same with a jerrico transmission. You break it, you eat it.

I think the tremecs are good transmisions, but they are not bullet proof. They aren't jerrico's for sure, but they do a nice job. And, who knows what the real story is anyway. Maybe he made 50 drag strip passes in a row and the tranny got hot, maybe had a leak, that case expands and the gear rides too high and breaks.

I think the shop is being fair in offering a compromise in this situation. It is what it is guys, and frankly the nature of the beast.

Scott

[Anthony]

Yours:

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

3. Every single knowledgealbe and even not-so knowledgeable people that I have shown the gears to absolutely said it must have been some sort of a part failure or improper installation (gear meshing not right). I am the first one to admit that I am in no way perfect, but I and others looked very hard and I also thought back to the moment very hard and there is not a doubt in my mind that I did not miss that shift. I've attached another picture showing more clearly 3rd gear's dog teeth and synchro blocker. They are in excellent shape. The shape of ones that came out of a box with only slightly more than 1000 miles on them.

If I wasn't in the gear all the way or missed the shift, the dog teeth would be damaged and/or rounded. Not the case.

If any damage would occur from improper usage, as they say, wouldn't it be to the dog teeth. How is it possible that they are mint. That tells me and others that the synchro hub was fully engaged to the 3rd gear. I am not saying that Keisler assembled the tranny incorrectly, but there is something wrong for the main teeth to fail in that way on that angle opposite that of the cluster gear.

4. Another reason why I felt this failure was not a failure of my own doing is due to the fact that I found another user of the Tremec 5speed that also had a failure. When I looked at his picture, It looked almost identical to mine. The teeth sheared off on the same angles and all. Another reason why I thought it might be a part failure. You can see his picture and read his post if you want at http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23218
.

I think you're right. The "gears" are always in constant mesh, when you shift, it is the slider sleeve, or whatever you want to call it, that moves and engages the small synchro teeth on the gear, with the brass blocking ring bringing the gears up to similar speeds for engagement of the synchro teeth.


Because the main gear teeth are angled, the front of the tooth will always engage the counter gear tooth first, before the rear of the tooth, thus initially placing the load on the front of the tooth, both on the main gear and on the counter shaft. If the 3rd gear ojn the counter shaft is larger than the 3rd gear on the main shaft, then that may be why the front part of the teeth on the main gear sheared, as they be weaker relative to the 3rd gear on the counter gear. Maybe that's why the front of the teeth are broken more than the rear, and the opposite on the counter gear.

If you miss a shift, it usually damages the small synchro teeth, not the larger main teeth. Actually, when buying a used trany, it's usually the small synchro teeth that are worn or bad, and often overlooked by the prospective buyer, and the main teeth look fine, but the tranny is really hosed because of the poor synchro teeth condition.

Originally Posted by rj8806

.... The evidence speaks for itself. The gear was sheared off in the front of the gear. If there was a defect in the material, the outcome would have been different.

This is a mute point anyway as Tremec has inspected it too and came to the same conclusion we did, abuse. They will not warranty it for that reason.
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

I think the evidence does speak for itself. If it was 1/2 into gear, the synchro teeth would be half sheared, not the main drive teeth, as they never move, i.e. slide forard or backwards, the slider sleeve does. I've rebuilt several muncies and toploaders, and they're basically the same design, all the gears are always in constant mesh, while in any gear. It's the slider sleeves engaging or disengaging the synchro teeth that determine how power is transfered, between which gears. Have you rebuilt any trannies, or understand how they work?

Originally Posted by scott coyle

Tremec had issues in the past with the case expanding on 3550's when the tranny is loaded, and third gear breaks. If you add in a heavy car(dodge) and the difference between second and third gear ratio's, they are far apart, it looks like it loaded the tranny, the case expanded and the teeth snapped off.

First and second are pretty low gears, so even in a heavy vehicle, they usually won't break. 4th gear is direct, so it won't load the tranny. Thats why third gear breaks. In a cobra, the vehicle is so light, the tranny is not really loaded as much as a heavier vehicle, so breakage is less likely.

Excellent explanation and it sounds logical. If the case expands alittle, the main gears get alittle out of alignment, and the load is not evenly placed on the teeth of the main gears, shearing off the front of the teeth first, as that is the part of the tooth that engages first. The other possibility is gear weakness, or poor design ( teeth angle too much, or gear diameter too small)

Interesting failure.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by scott coyle

Tremec had issues in the past with the case expanding on 3550's when the tranny is loaded, and third gear breaks. ----it looks like it loaded the tranny, the case expanded and the teeth snapped off.

I had always thought that tranny strength was determined soley by gear diameter, and tooth width and angle, determining max loading on teeth. I had never thought about possible misalignment causing uneven loading on gear teeth and gear failure.


Again , interesting failure.

[Rwillia4]

can someone label the picture. I trying to follow what happens when shifting and what is engageing what and where...

[ROUSHAC]

Cheers!
Dave

[trularin]

Got my second bag of extra butter, full kernel popcorn!

Dave! Ernie!

This is truely rich.

Do you al think we could get these guys back next week with say...a broken rear axel or maybe a leaking front Caliper or something?

Do they think this will go away?? It's like STD..with no cure.

[CobraEd]

I thought he said it was a big Dodge (Charger?) with slicks. Not drag radials but SLICKS. Isn't that Lenco territory?

[Toby]

Richard,

You are correct, you were very helpful and cordial to me! However the guy who you work for was a first class tool! He even complained about YOU at one point saying YOU had no business sending my stuff freight paid. even though it was Keislers screw up. Thats right, you were trying to do the right thing and your manager was talking you DOWN to me, the guy who you were trying to help.

He's the one I had to get nasty with. I can't remember his name, just the dippy attitude.

Richard, life is too short to work with jerks!!

Toby

[ROUSHAC]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Perhaps I should clarify my position.
I support Keisler, they've offered a fair solution and did so BEFORE this thread even started.
I sympathize with Fordfan69, it's a nightmare at best. It DOES leave me wondering if Tremec has a 3rd gear problem with manufacturing. Probably not, I would STILL buy a Tremec!
This is an entertaining thread, train wrecks are also entertaining.

Originally Posted by trularin

Got my second bag of extra butter, full kernel popcorn!

Dave! Ernie!

This is truely rich.

Do you al think we could get these guys back next week with say...a broken rear axel or maybe a leaking front Caliper or something?

Do they think this will go away?? It's like STD..with no cure.

Originally Posted by ROUSHAC

Cheers!
Dave

Originally Posted by Toby

Richard,

You are correct, you were very helpful and cordial to me! However the guy who you work for was a first class tool! He even complained about YOU at one point saying YOU had no business sending my stuff freight paid. even though it was Keislers screw up. Thats right, you were trying to do the right thing and your manager was talking you DOWN to me, the guy who you were trying to help.

He's the one I had to get nasty with. I can't remember his name, just the dippy attitude.

Richard, life is too short to work with jerks!!

Toby

Now that's more like it!

This post is for you trularin!!!

Cheers!
Dave

[lnfletcher]

Here we go, feet first.
Who's the looser on this ordeal? Not the consumer but the company.
How is the company going to get it's reputation back now that all of this has been aired?
The "right thing" was for the truth to be told in the first place and live with the results, but that didn't happen.
Now Keisler Engineering is trashed even though they most likely were in the right "technically", and FordFan69 is not out anything that he wasn't when this post started. I agree with whoever said that it would have been "cheaper" to send him another complete unit in trade and eat the costs. Who knows in reality how much this will cost Keisler.
Just look at the most successful businesses and you will find that what is lost on untruthful returns and repairs is made up for many times in customer loyalty and new customers! Walmart never asked me if I abused what I returned. The reality is, is that the customer has the money and therefore the power in these cases. We may or may not buy from Keisler but FordFan69 dosen't have to worry about selling his product.
Now Keisler has to begin the steep climb up the mountain of repaired reputations. Good luck!
By the way, almost $500 dollars seems pretty steep for parts only!

[Fordfan69]

I spoke with Keisler today and we came to an agreement. They are going to send me out a new 3rd gear and clustershaft and I am going to pay to have it rebuilt and the small parts kit. They say it will be shipped out today, Fri P.M..

All that I wanted was to have the hard parts replaced being that it was determined that there was no missed shift. I feel this is reasonable due to the fact that the warranty void issue was not brought up when I mentioned racing it. However, I am not ignorant and I know that there are certain risks involved in racing. I 100%, honestly feel I was mislead in believing that this tranny was strong enough to race occasionally at the track in my 3820LB car. If it is, in fact, a strong enough unit to handle the 450lb/ft with 3820 pounds on street drag radial tires, then my question whether there was a defect in the gear must be true.

Enough of this jabber: putting all of this aside I am satisfied that Keisler is stepping up to the plate and sharing the loss. When I get the parts, my sentiments regarding Keisler will no longer be negative. There was a problem, we had a major disagreement, and they were business-like enough to work with me and try to resolve it. Everyone should consider this.

There are many people here that agreed with me on the points of "misleading" if you will advertisement, the breakage cause, etc., and many others that don't and think I am just trying to get something for nothing at the expense of a companies reputation. Nothing is further from the truth. I did this because I work hard for my money and most people on this forum do also. Many people were/are planning on buying these trannys with mostly the intent to just cruise (as I did) as well as flogg it down the strip occasionally. People have a right to know if they spend a large sum of money for a purpose that it is not intended for, nor up to the task - period.

Thank you for your comments and input - positive and negative. But just remember, I lost. I now have a tranny I have to fix and cannot/will not use it as I intended. Keisler/Tremec lost (yes I was upset, but not my intention).

You guys won. You now have more information to use as a tool for making decisions about you car.

Thank you,
Greg.

[TRENTRENT]

Don't know about you guys, but extortion has never been a good motivator for me.

[trularin]

What a way to join CC.

Gee TrenTrent, why on Earth would you join CC on this thread?

Well, welcome to CC. This thread is not indicative of our overall nature, , but we have our moments.

[RICK LAKE]

Fordfan69 Greg I didn't read the 9 page problem with your trans and know the Kiesler is selling trans kits. Here's the thing I work for GM and the GTO and F body cars the T56 trans are breaking and hard shifting from 2nd to 3rd
and breaking gears and small parts. They needed to be blue printed and set up right with the correct plays. I started with the nash 6 speed when it first came out. Nice trans for the street limit of 450 hp and 450 tork, NOT!!!! I put a G-force clutchless 5 speed in the car HP 1000 Tork 1000 problem shifting none. G-force is all in house building. If you get the parts for the trans, send it to them for the rebuild. They sell an 800 hp kit for the T56 and TKO600. It's not cheap but they know how to rebuild trans. I have the T56 kit for rebuilding at work and have only been able to rebuild one. the damage to the bearings, springs,and gear chips in trans failure is alot. I would reccommend a trans cooler system for your car also. No slicks would be the other thing. You said the magic word, TRACK and that is a NO-NO. If you are going to beat this car, go to a Jericho, Tex-R, of G-force. Rick Lake ps gald kielser helped you out. NO body wins in the long run.