Tko600 Warning!!!!

[Fordfan69]

Hi Folks,

I just wanted to pass on my experience to everyone out there thinking of putting a TKO600 tranny in their ride. This started out as a pleasure and quickly turned into a nightmare.

In June of 2006, I purchased a complete TKO600 tranny kit from a company called Keisler Engineering that cost me almost $4000. I installed it and even spent 4 hours re-dialing in the bellhousing after I was told that it would be machined out exactly of the existing center (it was a Lakewood shield that was already dialed in to within .003") It came back to me with the machining way off. I then installed the tranny using the proper GM Synchromesh fluid and broke the tranny in for over 1000 miles properly. After driving it around for approx. 1400 miles or so and only 2-1/2 months, I decided to go to the track just for fun.

This is a street car and I have put it on the chassis dyno (two different places) and it only put out 385 Rear Wheel HP and 445 Rear Wheel torque. Even if you add a generous 100 to those numbers for drivetrain friction, I am still well within the SUPPOSED 650 Ft.lbs. it's rated at. I have Mickey Thompson E.T. Street radials that are pretty soft tires (295-60-15)

My VERY FIRST RUN DOWN THE TRACK, the transmission broke third gear; sheared all of the teeth off. I took off at 3000 rpm and shifted 1-2 and 2-3 at 6000 rpm. Not powershifted. I definitely did NOT miss the shift and it was in gear (the dog teeth and synchro blocker ring are in mint shape -indication there was zero missed or grinded shift).

I pulled the unit and sent it back to Keisler for warranty inspection. They looked at it and told me it was determined that it was classified as ABUSE because it was raced at the track. They don't warranty anything that is driven at the track. The gear broke and it is abuse? Have you seen the advertisement from Tremec showing the Mustang pulling the wheels off the ground at the track and stating "Whether it's the endurance needed for Road Racing or the sheer strength necessary to win at the Drags, there's a Tremec Transmission built for you" (Hot Rod magazine, December 2006, P. 67). It shows the TKO600 in that ad.

That to me means the transmission was built for the street as well as the strip (at least occasionally). I wouln't even complain if I took the car to the track many times and put many runs behind it, but the very first run, and it breaks. Remember, only 385 Horse at the wheels and 445 lb./ft. at the wheels.

So, I just wanted to warn you if you car is more powerful than this and you are looking for a tranny, keep my experience in mind (especially if you want to race it) when shopping around as well as the integrity and honor of the company that you purchase from. NOT ONE THAT YOU PAY ALMOST $4000 TO AND THEN THEY BASICALLY TURN THEIR BACK ON YOU WITH LEGAL LOOPHOLES, when they advertise the tranny is strong wnough for 650 lb./ft, when it breaks, they can say, well it wasn't driven on the street so we don't have to cover it.

So, beware and choose you tranny and supplier wisely. I have also found another user with exactly the same destructive results with 3rd gear in the same tranny. COINCIDENCE - I DON'T THINK SO.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o.../100_0849a.jpg

Good luck and I hope this prevents the aggravation and financial loss to someone else looking for a tranny, that it caused me.

[lineslinger]

Have you contacted Tremec directly or are you trying to get results through Keisler. I would give Tremec customer service a call and see what their reaction is. You can be sure they are well aware of the amount purchasers and sophistication of the customers that are on the CC website.
I'll bet if you can get a hold of the right guy you might realize some satisfaction in dealing with your situation.
Man, four grand for a gearbox and a supplemental "kit", whatever that is, is a lot of cash out pocket to have the manufacturer tell you to get stuffed.
Giving Keisler a call and relay your plan, that may also shake a few cages on their end. Don't let these suppliers turn their nose up at you, I did battle with Nikon for over 3 months over an underwater camera that failed at FIFTEEN feet when it was supposed to be good to 220'.
I finally ended up talking to Mr. Shinoda, exe. VP of Nikon of North America and got a new camera out of it.... which they should have done in the first place.
Stay after them, be persistent and good luck.

[LMH]

What kind of car is the trans in?
What was "machined"?
Larry

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

.In June of 2006, I purchased a complete TKO600 tranny kit from a company called Keisler Engineering that cost me almost $4000.
.

What was done to the tranny to make it so expensive, as I believe the TKO's are about $1600 ?

[jdog]

I just had a TKO600 installed in my car 2 months ago for 1/2 of that! You got hosed!

jdog
P.S. So far it's been a great trans.

[Fordfan69]

The tranny was installed in a 1968 Dodge Charger R/T and I had a Lakewood scattersheild in it. I had to send it to Keisler and they had to send it out to have the bearing retainer hole bored out to the TKO spec from the Hemi box diameter. That is what was not done correctly and forced me to re-dial in the sheild.

The kit included TKO 600 tranny (tailhousing lightly milled on top so it bolts into 68 dodge B-body without cutting torsion bar crossmember), driveshaft with tranny yoke, speedo cable, modified transmission mounting brace and ford mount, and Spec stage 3+ clutch disc and p.plate ($480).

You're right - it is very expensive. But, I didn/t want to cut up the car - it's original, numbers and all.

Keisler pretty much turned their back on me. Tremec won't warranty it because they say that Keisler opened it up and they can't vouch for their work. They are, however, looking at pictures of the gear and see if they can determine the cause of the failure.

[LMH]

I'm sorry to hear about the probelms your having. I hope you can find a solution that works.
It does state on Keislers website that any warranty will be voided if used for racing. That's why they aren't backing you on this.
I'm wondering if you just got a bad gear. There are lots of cars on this site using 600's that are in the 500 horse range and failures are rare. (some people, like me, can break anything though!)
Good luck!
Larry

[Fordfan69]

Thanks for the kind words, Larry.

You are absolutely right in that it does state that on the website. However, I am annoyed at the fact that I was very clear with my intentions with this transmission when I ordered it from Keisler. They didn't once state to me that I couldn't or should'n't race it at the racetrack. When I stated concern over its durability, they just kept saying, they sold many to cars with 600-700 horspower and no problem.

If that was the case and they would have told me I couldn't race it occasionally, I really would have purchased a different transmission.

I guess - live and learn.
Greg.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

You are absolutely right in that it does state that on the website. However, I am annoyed at the fact that I was very clear with my intentions with this transmission when I ordered it from Keisler. They didn't once state to me that I couldn't or should'n't race it at the racetrack. When I stated concern over its durability, they just kept saying, they sold many to cars with 600-700 horspower and no problem.

If that was the case and they would have told me I couldn't race it occasionally, I really would have purchased a different transmission.

The mopar A-833 4 speed was the strongest from the big three, a wide ratio unit, I think about 2.6:1 first gear. Run it with 3.54-3.73 rears, maybe get away with 3.23's.

[RedBarchetta]

Originally Posted by LMH

It does state on Keislers website that any warranty will be voided if used for racing. That's why they aren't backing you on this.

Memo to self...when buying a transmission, take my business to someone else (perhaps Tremec direct?).

-Dean

[496fe]

I then installed the tranny using the proper GM Synchromesh fluid and broke the tranny in for over 1000 miles properly

.

Ruh Roh. I didn't read those parts of the manual. I just thrash the stick around and it keeps going faster.

[Ant]

Fordfan69,

Regarding Rockwell hardness, I could be wrong but I think around 57 is par for the course for a road race transmission, and the drag race transmissions are a bit softer in the gears at around 52 rockwell, at least that is the choice from suppliers like Jerico! The softer gears wear out quicker and the harder gears are more prone to loosing teeth compared to the softer gears.

I think Tremec need to look at the design of the TKO-500, 600 series, as other transmissions like Toploaders, Muncies dont have all these problems, plus Tremec make the T56 which is apparently a good trans, which is available with special gear sets for racing by several suppliers. My question is why race with a transmission that is not designed or up to racing and they also state Road race gearset.....? The only selling point is the cruising top gear, and that probably applies more to road users!! BUT there may be a lot of TKO-600's out there that give years of trouble free hard usage.

Another alternative, and pardon me for mentioning Japanese, as I am not a Jap car fan, but a Toyota Supra twin turbo or suchlike transmission would have to be better made and last longer than most, plus stand reasonably high horsepower levels. I wonder what the Jap race 750 + bhp brigade are using in their drift cars etc.

[Don]

Without taking sides in this situation, a few thoughts:

* The Public Affairs/Relations professionals will most always recommend to take charge of the situation by immeadiately ending the discussion on a positive note. Might not be correct in one of the parties eyes, but is there more damage on a long term basis to reputations, future business, etc that could be created ......won the battle but lost the war. Had Senator Kerry decided to immediately end the controversy, would the recent incident gone away rather than become the topic which has filled the newscasts over the past few days. Privately, may not have agreed, but better to move on rather than keeping the story alive.

In business, reviving a hard earned, long term postive reputation is extremely difficult, when a single incident , with or without merit, gets all the press.

* The WSJ had a recent section on " Customer Service " One of the points mentioned is the " experience " in total. not just individual points such as how quickly the phone was answered. From the WSJ:


Traditionally, many businesses have defined customer service with a simple mantra: "The customer is always right." Got a problem? We'll fix it.

But over time, customer service has evolved. Deferential treatment is still part of the relationship, but in an increasingly competitive marketplace, many businesses aren't waiting for their customers to make a complaint or have a query. They're doing their best to figure out what the customer wants and to provide it before any questions or problems arise.

"Customer service can be defined in lots of different ways," says Chris Denove, a vice president at J.D. Power & Associates, the McGraw-Hill Cos. unit that conducts customer-satisfaction surveys. "It's being broadly defined more and more as the voice of the customer."

[jeffko]

You guys can analyze this to death and it does make for some interesting reading, but what happened was a mechanical failure that should not have failed. This transmission was broken while being used exactly what it was built for. Tremec even added the torque rating to the name and promotes their product as having the ability to take brute force and rightfully so. I have over 450 rwt on a TKO and I drive it pretty hard most all the time whether on the track, strip, street because that’s what I built it for. Likewise, most guys in our club have a Tremec without any problems. We have 2 or 3 guys (me being one of them) that have broken axles and half shafts without fazing the Tremecs. This poor guy got a trans with a manufacturing flaw and it failed. As good as a Tremec is do they really think that every trans they make is perfect? Insult to injury this guy got hosed on the price and still these pussies where he bought it will not do the right thing.

My solution….Boycott Keisler and we all demand Tremec repair their failures….even if they think it was some kind of end user abuse, which I strongly believe it was not. Remember, they advertise and we buy their products because they are tough and we have the right to demand service for what we paid for. The next time this happens it could be one of us.

http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English...tactusform.asp

[Tim Brewer]

"Race it" That's so stupid.... What kind of cars do they think those type of transmissions are going into..mini vans? They're transmissions for high performance cars. I can drive my car harder on the street than the track anytime if I wanted to! Sounds like a pretty weak trans to me..

[lineslinger]

Are you saying that Tremec is sidestepping their warranty obligation because Keisler opened up the box to make their modifications?
Does Tremec recognize Keisler as an authorised distributor of their product?
Did Keisler know you were going to race the car before they did their mods?
If they did the work try to find out why they won't stand behind it. Ask Tremec why they won't stand behind the components in ther transmissions and tell both of them their answers will be made known to their customer base.
You got stuck on a technicality, too bad neither one of them will step and take care of a customer, not surprising however...more like typical.
Start harassing the top dogs and don't let up. Let us know what happens.

[Fordfan69]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to give you an update. Over a week has gone by and I'm still haven't heard anything from Tremec. I think I will wait until the end of the week and then call them.

Also, I took 3rd gear over to a tool and die manufacturing co. and had them Rockwell test the gear for hardness. It was 60-60.5 on the R. scale which he said was very very hard. He was surprised being that a metal file is just about a 65. It is a Chromemoly gearset though, so it might be right. I would love to know if there is a test to see if it is too brittle though. Anybody out there know? I might look into bringing it to a Metalurgist to see if he can tell me anything about the failure.

finally, when I rebuild this unit, I am definitely going to put gear mesh paint on all of the gears and test the mesh pattern, just like they do on the rear ends. There might be nothing wrong with the gear and it might have been from improper mesh/backlash. That will tell alot. I looked closely at second gear and I don't like the mesh pattern at all. That's what gave me the idea of checking them all.

Thanks very much for the comments and feedback. I'll keep you posted as soon as I hear back from Tremec.

[ROUSHAC]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

Hi guys,

Just wanted to give you an update. Over a week has gone by and I'm still haven't heard anything from Tremec. I think I will wait until the end of the week and then call them.

Also, I took 3rd gear over to a tool and die manufacturing co. and had them Rockwell test the gear for hardness themselves. It was 60-60.5 on the R. scale which he said was very very hard. He was surprised being that a metal file is just about a 65. It is a Chromemoly gearset though, so it might be right. I would love to know if there is a test to see if it is too brittle though. Anybody out there know? I might look into bringing it to a Metalurgist to see if he can tell me anything about the failure.

finally, when I rebuild this unit, I am definitely going to put gear mesh paint on all of the gears and test the mesh pattern, just like they do on the rear ends. There might be nothing wrong with the gear and it might have been from improper mesh/backlash. That will tell alot. I looked closely at second gear and I don't like the mesh pattern at all. That's what gave me the idea of checking them all.

Thanks very much for the comments and feedback. I'll keep you posted as soon as I hear back from Tremec.

Fordfan69,

From what I've read here, Tremec and Kesler made their determination based on a visual inspection.

It sure sounds like maybe a good idea to send that gear to Tremec and let them test it for hardness. To me that Rockwell number means a very brittle gear prone to breaking teeth off.

Possibly, they got a bad batch from heat treating. The worse they can say is nope that is the right hardness for our gear, you messed up. The best is that they may say whoops, our fault and make things right.

Certainly worth a try to show them some physical proof rather than just debating the question wth them.

In any case, if that was the cause of the breakage, it sure seems to be Tremec's problem not Keisler's.

You are right, that pic from the other site sure does look like yours.

Theirs:


Yours:


Good luck!

Cheers!
Dave

[Eljaro]

To me this looks like material failure. Such a transmission like the 600TKO with the advertised power handling should take a misshift with no problem.
We misshift every once in a while without breaking our transmissions.
I have a TKO600 myself and have raced it hard and it runs perfectly.

With every happy customer you gain 2-3 new customer, with every unhappy customer you loose 10. Bad new travel further than good news.
What are these guys at Kaisler arguing about?
I would try to get this issue settled in MINUTES and get the problem off this Forum ASAP.
Dont repair the broken TKO but send this guy a new transmission and fight the cost out with TREMEC. They will listen to you!
Keep the damage to you company to a minimum!

[Fordfan69]

Roushac:

Thank you for the input. that's a good idea.

Just to point out, both of those pictures you've posted are both mine.
The other transmission is in the link listed in my previous post. They do look almost identical in everyway.

Thanks