For CSX 2000 and 3000 Series Cobra Owners Eyes Only

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Lets be clear, since we have this on the table.

I don't consider my Shelby a "kit" and never will. I serious doubt many CSX owners would either nor do I see or get the sense that the term "kit" is or is beginning to generically include them. Quite the contrary. I see and get the sense that over the years they have been accepted and considered genuine Cobras.

You may have missed this page in the Registry on component Cobras.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

You may have missed this page in the Registry on component Cobras.

Evan knows about that passage, since I've quoted it to him in threads like this one years and years ago.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Evan knows about that passage, since I've quoted it to him in threads like this one years and years ago.

I guess this thread gives us more insight into the reason for the OP question.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

You may have missed this page in the Registry on component Cobras.

No, I didn't miss that page. Actually, You (and Rodknock) need to read it carefully.. Especially the first sentence. That part of the page needs to be read in context with the rest of the discussion also.

The Continuation Cobras are copies of the original series. That's self evident. Hence "continuation" Cobras and not originals but genuine Cobras none the less. Thats the bottom line.

Rodneym: was at a car show Fathers day. Didnt bring any car. Just there looking and listening. I think it's fair to say the average Joe does not know a Street Beast "replica" as that term is now used and understood by the public from an original. In my experience most ask "is it Real" because they really don't know and don't know enough to be able to tell the difference. There is usually no nefarious motive. My read on it. They love "Cobras" and want to learn in most cases and I love educating them when I have the chance and the time. To me it's about keeping the interest in these cars alive whether replica or real.

[rodneym]

Evan, I'll do you one better...

There's another KMP in my area. My wife saw on Facebook that our son's friend has an uncle with a 'Shelby Cobra'. Hmm, let's see...unfinished aluminum, brushed with polished stripes, tall rollbar with the crossmember, etc. OK, I think I know what I'm dealing with. Cool, maybe I'll get a very local Cobra buddy. Days later I see the kid. "Hey, I saw that your uncle has a Kirkham Cobra! I've got one too!" So he says, "Kir-Kirkwho? He has a REAL Shelby."
Felt like strangling that kid.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

No, I didn't miss that page. Actually, You (and Rodknock) need to read it carefully.. Especially the first sentence. That part of the page needs to be read in context with the rest of the discussion also.

The Continuation Cobras are copies of the original series. That's self evident. Hence "continuation" Cobras and not originals but genuine Cobras none the less. Thats the bottom line.

I see cars like the 4000 series and others described as true replicas and Shelby using the term "component" to differentiate his, and to placate the DMV, but I can't find any reference to them being defined as "genuine".

IMO, using the word "real" and/or "genuine", in the Cobra world, with anything other than an original 60's vintage Cobra is a falsehood when answering "the question."

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

I see cars like the 4000 series and others described as true replicas and Shelby using the term "component" to differentiate his, and to placate the DMV, but I can't find any reference to them being defined as "genuine".

IMO, using the word "real" and/or "genuine", in the Cobra world, with anything other than an original 60's vintage Cobra is a falsehood when answering "the question."

While everyone is entitled to their own opinions (and you know what they say about opinions) I prefer to base my position on the working definitions used and accepted by SAAC. You do accept SAAC as the leading authority on all things Cobra don't you and the World Registry the Bible...don't you? Or perhaps only the parts you like?

I can easily see why owners of original cars would ascribe to the notion "if it wasn't built by Shelby in the 60's then it's not real". No axe to grind there.

I refer to the Continuation series as genuine or real Cobras because thats what they are. They are Shelby's and they are Cobras recreated by the original creator. As noted by the Registry while they are not originals they are not "replicas" as that term is understood in popular parlance which is commonly understood now to mean "kit cars" which while looking like a Cobra on the surface are nothing like it in substance underneath. A true "replica" is built to exact if not near exact specs as the original of it's kind and according to the dictionary by the "artist" responsible for the original. CSX3002 is arguably a replica of CSX3001 and so on but that is semantics.

Going beyond the general discussion on the Continuation Series....
and getting to the specificss lets start with the cover of the Registry titled "World Registry of Cobras & GT40s." It isn't titled "and Kits and Replicas". And what do you know I don't see FFRs, ERAs, Contemporaries, Backdrafts and the like in the Registry. Did I miss something?

Now lets go to the working definitions which were created because some car owners like to describe cars 'acting in their own best interests". I'm sure owners of original series are immune from this phenomenon however.

CSX 4000 Cobras are described as "current production Cobras..."
Hmmm, good enough for me.

"Kit car and Replica" is also defined using the now commonly understood use of "replica".

Moving to "Production Figures" we also see production figures for "Component Cobras" (CSX4000 etc.) set forth on the same page as "leaf sprung Cobras" and "Coil Spring Cobras". I don't see any production figures listed for kit cars or "replicas". Again did I miss that?

I can understand why you don't like when I or others refer to the Continuation series are real Cobras. Thats obvious. Doesn't change the fact that they are and have clearly been recogized as Cobras by the leading authority and bible on the subject. Just so happens their postion coincides with 'my opinion' now and as stated years ago before the current Registry was issued. See I was right again.

So when someone asks if my Cobra is "real" I accurately and truthfully answer "yes sure is". I always add that it is a Continuation Series Shebly Cobra. Whether they know what that is is not my problem. If I have time and they ask I happily explain. When that happens it does not seem to phase their amazement with the car either. In fact they seem just as amazed it's a genuine Shelby Cobra.

[jhv48]

Maybe we should approach this question (is it real) from the perspective of the person doing the asking.

I believe that most of these questions (is it real?) come from individuals that have no idea how to differentiate between an original Cobra, continuation cobra, SPF, BDR, CSSX, BFD, LOL, etc. It's my belief that all they want to know is if the cobra they are looking at was built in the 60's. Unless you interpret the question differently than I do, the only truthful answer is NO! (unless it is, in fact, an ORIGINAL one). Anything else is just wishful thinking on your part.

If you want to try and pass off your continuation car, SPF, BDR, Kirkham, BFD, etc., as a real original (built in the 60's) cobra, then you obviously interpret the question differently than I do. Just because Shelby writes something, doesn't make it so. He was attempting to differentiate his kit cars from all the others out there. Thus justifying the price or exclusivity.

Unless it was built in the 60's, it isn't a real original (built in the 60's) cobra. Everything else is just a kit car! Even the originals were kit cars, So what? Get over it!

Just answer the question and drop the indignation.

[patrickt]

I have a better idea. Since there are clearly more replica owners than owners of originals, I say we just "take over." We have more combined people, more combined resources, and more combined money. With that, we can pretty much do what we damn well please. We just steamroll over the original guys, and with them out of the way, we just declare our cars to be whatever we want them to be. It's easier than you think.

[jhv48]

Or we could just say "yes, it's an original continuation of a kit car!"

That ought to flummox them.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

So when someone asks if my Cobra is "real" I accurately and truthfully answer "yes sure is". I always add that it is a Continuation Series Shebly Cobra. Whether they know what that is is not my problem. If I have time and they ask I happily explain. When that happens it does not seem to phase their amazement with the car either. In fact they seem just as amazed it's a genuine Shelby Cobra.

I am equally amazed that you continue to spew that lame explanation.

As stated so many times before, when a 'civilian' asks if it is 'real' or 'original'...we all know exactly what they mean.

Unless you own a CSX2000 or 3000 car, any answer other than "no..." is a self serving line of BS.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by computerworks

I am equally amazed that you continue to spew that lame explanation.

As stated so many times before, when a 'civilian' asks if it is 'real' or 'original'...we all know exactly what they mean.

Unless you own a CSX2000 or 3000 car, any answer other than "no..." is a self serving line of BS.

Ouch!!

The explanation is not lame, misleading nor is it spewed but given in response to the question.

Yes, I agree that most "civilians" are inquiring if it is an "original" by asking if its "real". But as we "non-civilans" know the facts on the ground have changed since 1968. Again, SAAC and the Registry acknowledges and discuss this in detail.

If the question posed to me is.. "is that an original?" I always answer honestly and say "no, it's not an original, its a Continuation series Shebly Cobra." There are a fair number of people today that already know what that is but some don't admittedly don't.

If the question is, "is it real" which is a different question based on the facts today as much as many hate to admit it, the answer I give "yes, it is a Continuation series Shelby Cobra". The word "continuation" does not in any way sound like the word "original", it's spelling is not similar and in fact it's commonly understood meaning defines something other than original. That is self evident.

Why does the ignorance of "civilians" require Continuation Cobra owners to change or modify their factual answers to conform to the ignorance of the person asking the question so as to perpetuate the belief of the "civilian" that the Continuation Cobra is not a real Cobra? It doesn't.

So,... if a person asks me the question "is your Cobra real?" It's your position that the only truthful answer must be prefeced by the word "No" then I guess according to you I am then free to say " it is a Continuation series Cobra"? That would make alot of original owners happy I'm sure since that answer is then easily misconstrued by the "civilian" as you call them that it is then a "kit car or replica" as that word is now commonly understood which it is not according to SAAC and the Registry. See discussion and definitions in the World Registry.

No, you see what you suggest Continuation Cobra owners should be constrained to in answering the "is it real" quesiton is "lame" and unfair. The more accurate answer is "yes it is a real Cobra. Its a Continuation series Cobra"... I could add in exchange of this Yes it is real, however it is not an original series Cobra but a continuation series Cobra." This answer if fair and accurate.

Yes, AC stamped the serial numbers on the original chasis. What does "CSX" stand for again???? LOL.

The COB and COX cars were allowed to be called Cobras under agreement/license with Shelby, but for that they would not be Cobras either unless designated so by SAAC which they were. Ask Brian Angliss.

I agree that the Registry defines these cars and explains what they are in order to avoid confusion with the original cars and with "non Cobras" to in order to help protect future buyers. There have aleady been cases were the unscrupulous have tried to counterfit Continuation Cobras and pawn them off as such.

Patrick: Violence is not always the answer. Learn to accept the facts and the truth. LOL.

[computerworks]

When you answer that way, you are misleading the listener.

It is sad that you feel compelled to explain your car with a footnote ...to people who have no idea what you are referring to.

As I said...self-serving.

Whatever makes you feel good, I guess.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Patrick: Violence is not always the answer. Learn to accept the facts and the truth. LOL.

Uhhh, since you did such a clear job of explaining that truth to me maybe you could tackle the bogomol'nyi bound for me now?

[itstock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ouch!!

The explanation is not lame, misleading nor is it spewed but given in response to the question.

Yes, I agree that most "civilians" are inquiring if it is an "original" by asking if its "real". But as we "non-civilans" know the facts on the ground have changed since 1968. Again, SAAC and the Registry acknowledges and discuss this in detail.

If the question posed to me is.. "is that an original?" I always answer honestly and say "no, it's not an original, its a Continuation series Shebly Cobra." There are a fair number of people today that already know what that is but some don't admittedly don't.

If the question is, "is it real" which is a different question based on the facts today as much as many hate to admit it, the answer I give "yes, it is a Continuation series Shelby Cobra". The word "continuation" does not in any way sound like the word "original", it's spelling is not similar and in fact it's commonly understood meaning defines something other than original. That is self evident.

Why does the ignorance of "civilians" require Continuation Cobra owners to change or modify their factual answers to conform to the ignorance of the person asking the question so as to perpetuate the belief of the "civilian" that the Continuation Cobra is not a real Cobra? It doesn't.

So,... if a person asks me the question "is your Cobra real?" It's your position that the only truthful answer must be prefeced by the word "No" then I guess according to you I am then free to say " it is a Continuation series Cobra"? That would make alot of original owners happy I'm sure since that answer is then easily misconstrued by the "civilian" as you call them that it is then a "kit car or replica" as that word is now commonly understood which it is not according to SAAC and the Registry. See discussion and definitions in the World Registry.

No, you see what you suggest Continuation Cobra owners should be constrained to in answering the "is it real" quesiton is "lame" and unfair. The more accurate answer is "yes it is a real Cobra. Its a Continuation series Cobra"... I could add in exchange of this Yes it is real, however it is not an original series Cobra but a continuation series Cobra." This answer if fair and accurate.

Yes, AC stamped the serial numbers on the original chasis. What does "CSX" stand for again???? LOL.

The COB and COX cars were allowed to be called Cobras under agreement/license with Shelby, but for that they would not be Cobras either unless designated so by SAAC which they were. Ask Brian Angliss.

I agree that the Registry defines these cars and explains what they are in order to avoid confusion with the original cars and with "non Cobras" to in order to help protect future buyers. There have aleady been cases were the unscrupulous have tried to counterfit Continuation Cobras and pawn them off as such.

Patrick: Violence is not always the answer. Learn to accept the facts and the truth. LOL.

Imagine if you had to explain the difference every day, to every single person that asks? No thanks.

I've never been asked if my car was "original", only if it were "real". I have never answered yes, always answered it is a replica. If I had a continuation series, I would have no problem answering "yes" to "is that real?" But like you, I understand the difference of real/original.

The challenging question is; "What kind of car is that"?

I answer that as a replica of a 1965 Shelby 427 Cobra. "A what"? A Shelby Cobra. "insert response/cool car/nice ride etc".

You continuation series guys have it easy.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

See discussion and definitions in the World Registry.

I hate myself for contributing to this thread, again, but the Registry calls the CSX4000's "true replicas."

Now some CSX4000's are "more true" than other CSX4000 replicas, so I'd put Evan's CSX4000 in the category of "truest replicas."

As Socrates said "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ask Brian Angliss.

I'm never sure why Brian Angliss, who came into the AC Cars equation many years after the last 60's-built Cobra was built, should be relied upon as a primary source of information about cars constructed by others long prior to his involvement. He has reconstructed a number of early cars, and he did build the AC MK.IV's, but he had nothing to do with Shelby or AC Cars in the 60's.

[mrmustang]

Ladies and gentleman of the jury, I present the following statement as evidence that Evan H. has presented in writing on 05-10-2013 at 08:02 AM (reference post #41) that his CSX4000 series is indeed a "replica" of an original Cobra.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

If it doesn't rain this weekend you can bet I will be driving my genuine Cobra thats an exact replica of the original series LOL

Bill S.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by computerworks

I am equally amazed that you continue to spew that lame explanation.

As stated so many times before, when a 'civilian' asks if it is 'real' or 'original'...we all know exactly what they mean.

Unless you own a CSX2000 or 3000 car, any answer other than "no..." is a self serving line of BS.

This is so confusing. We have lawyers, the cobra registrar, at least one cobra book author, long time saac members all discussing what's real again. The registry has all of those pages to read, which will take forever. Maybe I should just ask my magic 8 ball? Or better yet, I'll ask my tea cup...

[1ntCobra]

Oh NO! Not only did Shelby Automobiles use the slogan "Own the Real Thing" on tea cups, but now I find out Shelby American's telephone and fax numbers are "REAL" and "COBRA":

SHELBY AMERICAN, INC.
6755 Speedway Blvd.
Las Vegas, NV 89115
Tel: 702.942.REAL (7325)
Fax: 702.93.COBRA (26272)

What are the civilians going to think "real" means when Shelby is using the word to sell new Cobras?

At least Evan tries to unconfuse the civilians of their apparent misuse of the question, "Is it real?"

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

This is so confusing. We have lawyers, the cobra registrar, at least one cobra book author, long time saac members all discussing what's real again. The registry has all of those pages to read, which will take forever. Maybe I should just ask my magic 8 ball? Or better yet, I'll ask my tea cup...